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Post by Reefs on Sept 19, 2013 9:10:23 GMT -5
If we're to talk about samadhi as extreme mental silence, the obvious answer is that most are unable to be that still and so the discussion naturally evolves into why that is. The other piece is that Samadhi is a doorway to clarity or a facilitator of realization and not some sort of goal in and of itself. Amen, and that's what SQ was pointing to. You think that's the 9th Jhana thingy again? |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 19, 2013 10:35:21 GMT -5
Amen, and that's what SQ was pointing to. You think that's the 9th Jhana thingy again? Is there any doubt? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 10:56:44 GMT -5
Whenever I hear samadhi, images burned in my memory appear, one of a zen monk immolating, fully ablaze, with perfect lotus posture, and another of a skeleton in lotus position with "samadhi suicide" as the label. The state was apparently so enticing, one just watched the body wither into dust. Steven, does your drive for permanent samadhi account for this possibility? Your beautiful Latina wife and biz clients may want to know.  |
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Post by silence on Sept 19, 2013 11:07:44 GMT -5
If we're to talk about samadhi as extreme mental silence, the obvious answer is that most are unable to be that still and so the discussion naturally evolves into why that is. The other piece is that Samadhi is a doorway to clarity or a facilitator of realization and not some sort of goal in and of itself. I would not describe Samadhi as extreme mental silence, or talk about it that way, as thats not how the experience appears to me. as to the rest, I think folks have gotten it all backwards....A moment of Samadhi facitlitates realization, but realization is the facilitator, not the end game...the "end game" is moving deeper into Samadhi and becoming stable in it, meaning, that Samadhi becomes to new normal state in almost a kind of evolution of individuated conciousness that disapears, or open into God, or limitlessly unified conciousness. A moment of Samadhi reveals realization, but realization is just the facilitator of going the rest of the way into the opening of conciousness. Do you recognize that it is precisely your complex thinking that has created this end game and the entire path you've placed before yourself? When you come out of samadhi your mind seems to go into overdrive forming an elaborate identity and spiritual path to pursue. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 19, 2013 11:47:56 GMT -5
I would not describe Samadhi as extreme mental silence, or talk about it that way, as thats not how the experience appears to me. as to the rest, I think folks have gotten it all backwards....A moment of Samadhi facitlitates realization, but realization is the facilitator, not the end game...the "end game" is moving deeper into Samadhi and becoming stable in it, meaning, that Samadhi becomes to new normal state in almost a kind of evolution of individuated conciousness that disapears, or open into God, or limitlessly unified conciousness. A moment of Samadhi reveals realization, but realization is just the facilitator of going the rest of the way into the opening of conciousness. Do you recognize that it is precisely your complex thinking that has created this end game and the entire path you've placed before yourself? When you come out of samadhi your mind seems to go into overdrive forming an elaborate identity and spiritual path to pursue. Yes, that's the elephant in the living room here. I don't have an issue with spiritual experiences, and regular Samahdi in an accomplishment Steve can be proud of, but there's the rub. From my perspective, the definition of enlightenment, realization and the 'end game' have been completely reoriented to accommodate the spiritual experience as the goal. Now, suddenly, realization is the result of Samadhi, and enlightenment is some kind of precursor awakening in preparation for the state. What does ring true is the 'game' part. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 13:19:07 GMT -5
If we're to talk about samadhi as extreme mental silence, the obvious answer is that most are unable to be that still and so the discussion naturally evolves into why that is. The other piece is that Samadhi is a doorway to clarity or a facilitator of realization and not some sort of goal in and of itself. Amen, and that's what SQ was pointing to. But the thing is, that you are agreeing on a strawman. which is the assumption that Samadhi is the facilitator of realization and nothing more, and that realization is the "end game", and once realized, Samadhi is pointless. I'm simply saying that my own "evolution" is that Samadhi (a unified state of consciousness without the limitations of an experiential self)is the point of it all, not realization, and that realization is really the facilitator of surrendering the self in permanent Samadhi. What, if any, is your counter summation, and why ZD? I disagree that Samadhi is a facilitator and not the "goal" or "destination"...Samadhi IS the point of it all, it is the path and the destination....fundamentally, I've come to realize that shift to Samadhi is the fundamental movement of the human condition...i.e. a direct experiential Union with existence unfiltered by the experience of a Self or a localized individuated perspective. Said another way, Being versus knowing Oneness. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 13:23:23 GMT -5
I'm simply saying that my own "evolution" is that Samadhi (a unified state of consciousness without the limitations of an experiential self)is the point of it all, not realization, and that realization is really the facilitator of surrendering the self in permanent Samadhi. From that description, though, it sounds like realization is sort of a threshold to be crossed -- 'passing through' the gateless gate -- which leads to samadhi as you define it. If so, why does it matter whether realization is the thing or samadhi is the thing? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 13:27:38 GMT -5
You think that's the 9th Jhana thingy again? Is there any doubt? Now you are just being silly my friend. I'm right here, you can actually have a conversation with me instead of going on some kind of thought trip about your perceptions of me or what I'm getting at ;-) |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 13:43:24 GMT -5
I would not describe Samadhi as extreme mental silence, or talk about it that way, as thats not how the experience appears to me. as to the rest, I think folks have gotten it all backwards....A moment of Samadhi facitlitates realization, but realization is the facilitator, not the end game...the "end game" is moving deeper into Samadhi and becoming stable in it, meaning, that Samadhi becomes to new normal state in almost a kind of evolution of individuated conciousness that disapears, or open into God, or limitlessly unified conciousness. A moment of Samadhi reveals realization, but realization is just the facilitator of going the rest of the way into the opening of conciousness. Do you recognize that it is precisely your complex thinking that has created this end game and the entire path you've placed before yourself? When you come out of samadhi your mind seems to go into overdrive forming an elaborate identity and spiritual path to pursue. Actually, I only spoke in terms of an "end game", in response to your comment about realization being the "goal" or end game. I am not really relating in terms of "end games" to this experience. What I'm discussing, is the over emphasis that has developed toward enlightenment versus Samadhi in our culture, and stating that in my experience of late, Samadhi, or a hyper concious unfiltered selfless state of consciousness, is much more significant that a realization occurring within an individuated state consciousness. Also, I would not say that the mind goes into overdrive when coming out of Samadhi, its more accurate to say that realization occurs that informs mind, just as ZD's realization informed his mind that all things are one and perfect, and that realization informed the living and quality of his life. Realization informs the individual about the limitless unified perfection of existence...but it informs the individuated mind....realization happens because fir a moment the individuation is released and unified limitless consciousness is the experience, when one returns to an individuated state of consciousness, the mind has a big woo woo about: Wow, thats how things are! What I'm saying is that the knowing of the thing is not the thing. Meaning that mind's realization of unified perfection occurs from experiencing a moment of unified perfection unfiltered by a consciousness of individuation.....and that this realization occurring to the individual that resulted from the moment of Samadhi, is not the point, Samadhi is the point. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 16:05:45 GMT -5
I'm simply saying that my own "evolution" is that Samadhi (a unified state of consciousness without the limitations of an experiential self)is the point of it all, not realization, and that realization is really the facilitator of surrendering the self in permanent Samadhi. From that description, though, it sounds like realization is sort of a threshold to be crossed -- 'passing through' the gateless gate -- which leads to samadhi as you define it. If so, why does it matter whether realization is the thing or samadhi is the thing? None are really Gateways to the others per se. Folks like ZD and others call Samadhi a practices and its very easy for the novice to arrive at that conclusion, and by novice I mean someone that has not spent a lot of time in a Samadhi state of consciousness. Samadhi is not a practice, its a state of consciousness that, for the novice, often requires intensive practice to open into. Because the practice is so intense, and so much effort is required in the beginning, and because one often gains a realization in the personal perspective as a result of the shift in consciousness, and because the shift into Samadhi from intense practice is so sudden and integrative, it can easily be assumed that Samadhi is a practice. Its not, its a state of consciousness. In a way, the realizations that occur to the mind can actually bolster the idea that Samadhi is a practice, in that realization satisfies the mind in a deep way, and bring a kind of stability to the individuated state of consciousness. That satisfaction of the mind ends the search and the instability of the searching, and the result is that one can assume that Samadhi is just a practice that brings realization, clarity, stability, and satisfaction. But this is an understanding that is the result of the mind's self supporting instinct, and its limitations of perception. If one continues with shifting into the expanded Samadhi state of consciousness, mind becomes further informed via realization, that Samadhi is not simply a tool for transforming, stabilizing, satisfying the mind, its a transcendence of the limitations of mind. Its an opening and expanding of the limited state of individuated consciousness into non-individuated consciousness. just as Realization is not a practice, Samadhi is not a practice. Practices facilitate a shift from a limited personal awareness to universal or limitless awareness. The shift informs mind via realization, and the mind is stabilized....but a stabilized mind is not the end game....that brief moment of expanded consciousness is the destination so to speak. A stabilized mind that realizes its inherent oneness and illusionary self existence creates a platform from which one may more easily and completely let go of the limited individuated consciousness into a constant state of non-individuated consciousness. But its just a platform, an opportunity, a clearing of the way...a removing of the obstacles of the fear of the unknown or loss of self. But what happens, often as the result of not having a teacher telling the person that there is a further, and that they are not "done yet", is that the stability and satisfaction of the mind as a result of realization causes the person to stop all efforts to shift into the an expanded state of consciousness, which is Samadhi. One's mental and spiritual satisfaction can end up keeping one bound to a personal awareness and limited consciousness. Its probably lack of a relationship with a lifelong guru that has spawned this "calling er done" once realization has occurred phenomena with western seekers. The only reason I went further after realization, is that early on I read that a big problem with not having a teacher, is that one can think they are done long before they are, because there is no qualified teacher to tell them they are not "done". So I resolved to never be "done". I will say this though....before enlightenment, practice was pursued as a kind of manic search. After enlightenment/kensho, and the stabilization and satisfaction that issued, practice is no longer a manic search for something that is always right there, its a means of shifting into the greater levels of consciousness that is there for us beyond this individuated awareness of self. After enlightenment, you are not "done", because you still have the "work" of permanently expanding your limited, albeit satisfied consciousness from the personal to the unlimited and unbounded....some people call this dissolving the ego, and by ego, in this situation, we mean your most essential experience of personhood. If you have had the big woo woo realization, it is likely that you are so satisfied and stabilized in your personal awareness that you just don't care about the expanded conciousness of Samadhi, or God Union. Its also possible that you are clinging to that satisfaction, stability, and personhood so much that you will thoroughly reject what I am telling you. All of that is fine, but it will not keep me from telling you that there is a further, and despite your satisfaction, its worth checking out....and also to tell you that you should not fear a loss of personhood or personal consciousness. As an aside, I suspect that the whole reason many of you are maintaining the personal perspective of consciousness, is because for whatever reasons, the universe wants the percieved separation from God (undifferentiated consciousness), because there is a difference between knowing God and Being God. And the Universe has brought you into awareness of oneness and lack of individuation and separateness while still maintaining your perspective of individuation so that Knowing God is not lost in Being God. In any case, I still find myself telling folks that beyond the satisfaction and stability of realization occurring in your personal perspective, you have absolute union with the absolute available to you. |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 19, 2013 16:21:35 GMT -5
"Be still....." Psalms 46:10
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 16:42:14 GMT -5
"Be still....." Psalms 46:10 Thank you :-) When the person is still, they may know God But there is a kind of further, there is the loss of knowing into Being. |
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Post by silence on Sept 19, 2013 17:19:31 GMT -5
Do you recognize that it is precisely your complex thinking that has created this end game and the entire path you've placed before yourself? When you come out of samadhi your mind seems to go into overdrive forming an elaborate identity and spiritual path to pursue. Actually, I only spoke in terms of an "end game", in response to your comment about realization being the "goal" or end game. I am not really relating in terms of "end games" to this experience. What I'm discussing, is the over emphasis that has developed toward enlightenment versus Samadhi in our culture, and stating that in my experience of late, Samadhi, or a hyper concious unfiltered selfless state of consciousness, is much more significant that a realization occurring within an individuated state consciousness. Also, I would not say that the mind goes into overdrive when coming out of Samadhi, its more accurate to say that realization occurs that informs mind, just as ZD's realization informed his mind that all things are one and perfect, and that realization informed the living and quality of his life. Realization informs the individual about the limitless unified perfection of existence...but it informs the individuated mind....realization happens because fir a moment the individuation is released and unified limitless consciousness is the experience, when one returns to an individuated state of consciousness, the mind has a big woo woo about: Wow, thats how things are! What I'm saying is that the knowing of the thing is not the thing. Meaning that mind's realization of unified perfection occurs from experiencing a moment of unified perfection unfiltered by a consciousness of individuation.....and that this realization occurring to the individual that resulted from the moment of Samadhi, is not the point, Samadhi is the point. You're addicted to an experience. Plain and simple. |
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Post by earnest on Sept 19, 2013 17:24:35 GMT -5
Going back to the start of the thread Steve, are there any modern (and by that i mean alive) teachers that you think are on the level?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 18:01:15 GMT -5
Actually, I only spoke in terms of an "end game", in response to your comment about realization being the "goal" or end game. I am not really relating in terms of "end games" to this experience. What I'm discussing, is the over emphasis that has developed toward enlightenment versus Samadhi in our culture, and stating that in my experience of late, Samadhi, or a hyper concious unfiltered selfless state of consciousness, is much more significant that a realization occurring within an individuated state consciousness. Also, I would not say that the mind goes into overdrive when coming out of Samadhi, its more accurate to say that realization occurs that informs mind, just as ZD's realization informed his mind that all things are one and perfect, and that realization informed the living and quality of his life. Realization informs the individual about the limitless unified perfection of existence...but it informs the individuated mind....realization happens because fir a moment the individuation is released and unified limitless consciousness is the experience, when one returns to an individuated state of consciousness, the mind has a big woo woo about: Wow, thats how things are! What I'm saying is that the knowing of the thing is not the thing. Meaning that mind's realization of unified perfection occurs from experiencing a moment of unified perfection unfiltered by a consciousness of individuation.....and that this realization occurring to the individual that resulted from the moment of Samadhi, is not the point, Samadhi is the point. You're addicted to an experience. Plain and simple. Okay, thanks. Are you addicted to anything, like "understanding"? Or anything else? Maybe mental clarity? Anything? |
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