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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 12:12:51 GMT -5
John WheelerDo you see the truth of that? Yes, I can digest that a little better because it doesn't claim anything about eternity and time. It's very practical and doesn't exclude the possibility of relative change.
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Post by enigma on Aug 28, 2013 12:27:15 GMT -5
John WheelerDo you see the truth of that? Yes, I can digest that a little better because it doesn't claim anything about eternity and time. It's very practical and doesn't exclude the possibility of relative change. Okay. I tried to find my posts to see where I went horribly wrong, and couldn't. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 12:35:52 GMT -5
John WheelerYes, I can digest that a little better because it doesn't claim anything about eternity and time. It's very practical and doesn't exclude the possibility of relative change. Okay. I tried to find my posts to see where I went horribly wrong, and couldn't. You seem to be taking something personally, grasshopper. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 28, 2013 12:43:18 GMT -5
Okay. I tried to find my posts to see where I went horribly wrong, and couldn't. You seem to be taking something personally, grasshopper. Not at all. I'm interested in being clear and I'm curious as to why I was not. I was also hinting that you might be able to point me to our conversation, but it's not important. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 12:50:06 GMT -5
You seem to be taking something personally, grasshopper. Not at all. I'm interested in being clear and I'm curious as to why I was not. I was also hinting that you might be able to point me to our conversation, but it's not important. The 'all the Time' thing comes from JSchwartz, nobodyishome's dude. I was mostly railing on that little thing. The approach to know what you are not seems good to me, I don't have a problem with it. One of the things that is obvious to probably everyone, and that I nonetheless evidently need reminders of, is that I appear to be hung up on doubt/skepticism. If there's some niggling little thing that can be doubted I'll seize on it and shake it 'til it dies. Just more ego. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 28, 2013 12:54:24 GMT -5
Not at all. I'm interested in being clear and I'm curious as to why I was not. I was also hinting that you might be able to point me to our conversation, but it's not important. The 'all the Time' thing comes from JSchwartz, nobodyishome's dude. I was mostly railing on that little thing. The approach to know what you are not seems good to me, I don't have a problem with it. One of the things that is obvious to probably everyone, and that I nonetheless evidently need reminders of, is that I appear to be hung up on doubt/skepticism. If there's some niggling little thing that can be doubted I'll seize on it and shake it 'til it dies. Just more ego. Okay, then you still doubt this: "Whatever appears and disappears cannot be your abiding nature. Why? Because you are still existing, even in the absence of such things." |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 13:04:02 GMT -5
The 'all the Time' thing comes from JSchwartz, nobodyishome's dude. I was mostly railing on that little thing. The approach to know what you are not seems good to me, I don't have a problem with it. One of the things that is obvious to probably everyone, and that I nonetheless evidently need reminders of, is that I appear to be hung up on doubt/skepticism. If there's some niggling little thing that can be doubted I'll seize on it and shake it 'til it dies. Just more ego. Okay, then you still doubt this: "Whatever appears and disappears cannot be your abiding nature. Why? Because you are still existing, even in the absence of such things." Well, again, it works because there's no 'all the Time' sort of clause in there. Obviously I see a lot of stuff appearing and disappearing. 'Abiding nature' is the ability to witness that. But I don't know squat about what 'all the Time' means. That's what I doubt. To me, it's too much of a claim. All I know is now. There is abidance now. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 28, 2013 14:30:02 GMT -5
Okay, then you still doubt this: "Whatever appears and disappears cannot be your abiding nature. Why? Because you are still existing, even in the absence of such things." Well, again, it works because there's no 'all the Time' sort of clause in there. Obviously I see a lot of stuff appearing and disappearing. 'Abiding nature' is the ability to witness that. But I don't know squat about what 'all the Time' means. That's what I doubt. To me, it's too much of a claim. All I know is now. There is abidance now. I dunno anything about 'all the time' either. I suspect I said something about it, but I have no idea what. Hehe. |
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Post by runstill on Aug 28, 2013 16:05:23 GMT -5
Well, again, it works because there's no 'all the Time' sort of clause in there. Obviously I see a lot of stuff appearing and disappearing. 'Abiding nature' is the ability to witness that. But I don't know squat about what 'all the Time' means. That's what I doubt. To me, it's too much of a claim. All I know is now. There is abidance now. I dunno anything about 'all the time' either. I suspect I said something about it, but I have no idea what. Hehe. What yous guys are talking about is 'direct experience' is that right ? When I 'think' about 'direct experience' to me it's the only thing that is real, every thing else is a belief, a judgement, a conditioned reflective thought based on what I was told or read about, saw on you-tube, oh wait that must be true  So what can be said about DE on venue such as this ? |
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Post by silence on Aug 28, 2013 16:44:19 GMT -5
There's no argument. Doubt will never cease through some process of logical deduction. You're completely wasting your time. Well, I feel the love, but you're wrong. Uttering "you're completely wasting your time" is a waste of time. Is burping a waste of time? Also, the you you are addressing in "you're completely wasting your time" is the same thing I'm referring to when I use "I" to say "I think I get the argument." That's the problem. And while that you/I has time to waste, it is irrelevant to the the "I" used in the argument, which has been redefined to mean unbounded by personhood and life/death. And there is an argument, which is not mine. I am skeptical of it, and did not understand it. Now I know why I didn't understand. But really, I don't have much of an argument with it all being a waste of time. The point is absurdly simple. There's just a movement of thought trying to understand what gives rise to itself. It can not. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 28, 2013 16:56:51 GMT -5
I dunno anything about 'all the time' either. I suspect I said something about it, but I have no idea what. Hehe. What yous guys are talking about is 'direct experience' is that right ? When I 'think' about 'direct experience' to me it's the only thing that is real, every thing else is a belief, a judgement, a conditioned reflective thought based on what I was told or read about, saw on you-tube, oh wait that must be true So what can be said about DE on venue such as this ? I'm not talking about an experience, but rather a realization. |
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Post by serpentqueen on Aug 28, 2013 18:04:57 GMT -5
I dunno anything about 'all the time' either. I suspect I said something about it, but I have no idea what. Hehe. What yous guys are talking about is 'direct experience' is that right ? When I 'think' about 'direct experience' to me it's the only thing that is real, every thing else is a belief, a judgement, a conditioned reflective thought based on what I was told or read about, saw on you-tube, oh wait that must be true So what can be said about DE on venue such as this ? Problem is direct experience is often colored by what you believe or expect. If you are told to count the basket ball passes, you will miss the gorilla walking across the basketball court. And a million other ways our senses lie to us/edit our direct experience. Or maybe you meant something different, and I'm just too tired today. |
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Post by runstill on Aug 28, 2013 19:59:30 GMT -5
What yous guys are talking about is 'direct experience' is that right ? When I 'think' about 'direct experience' to me it's the only thing that is real, every thing else is a belief, a judgement, a conditioned reflective thought based on what I was told or read about, saw on you-tube, oh wait that must be true So what can be said about DE on venue such as this ? If you are told to count the basket ball passes, you will miss the gorilla walking across the basketball court. And a million other ways our senses lie to us/edit our direct experience. Or maybe you meant something different, and I'm just too tired today. Right, so just pay attention to what is directly experienced with-out the over lay of thought it's a little tricky at first, hold an apple in your hand feel the texture take a bite and notice the taste and the sensation of chewing it, this is a direct experience. My writing about it is not or you thinking what its like eating a apple is not. So its a small leap to say thought/thinking cannot be reality only what is a direct experience is real.. whadaya think...  |
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Post by silence on Aug 28, 2013 20:30:11 GMT -5
Problem is direct experience is often colored by what you believe or expect. If you are told to count the basket ball passes, you will miss the gorilla walking across the basketball court. And a million other ways our senses lie to us/edit our direct experience. Or maybe you meant something different, and I'm just too tired today. Right, so just pay attention to what is directly experienced with-out the over lay of thought it's a little tricky at first, hold an apple in your hand feel the texture take a bite and notice the taste and the sensation of chewing it, this is a direct experience. My writing about it is not or you thinking what its like eating a apple is not. So its a small leap to say thought/thinking cannot be reality only what is a direct experience is real.. whadaya think... You can not even pick the apple out of your refrigerator let alone examine the sensations of touching and chewing without the aid of thought. Mind is not operating in separate compartments such that sensory information is occurring over here and thought over there. You are able to navigate your environment and experience events happening in time (eating an apple) precisely because there's an enormous amount of subtle thought constantly piecing together an experience. The absence of this leaves nothing to say, nothing to remember and nothing of any value to talk about. |
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Post by serpentqueen on Aug 28, 2013 20:32:04 GMT -5
Problem is direct experience is often colored by what you believe or expect. If you are told to count the basket ball passes, you will miss the gorilla walking across the basketball court. And a million other ways our senses lie to us/edit our direct experience. Or maybe you meant something different, and I'm just too tired today. Right, so just pay attention to what is directly experienced with-out the over lay of thought it's a little tricky at first, hold an apple in your hand feel the texture take a bite and notice the taste and the sensation of chewing it, this is a direct experience. My writing about it is not or you thinking what its like eating a apple is not. So its a small leap to say thought/thinking cannot be reality only what is a direct experience is real.. whadaya think... But ... but... I can't know that a whiff of apple-smell hasn't conditioned my tongue to taste apple; I can't even know I haven't created the apple out of thin air, because I expected it there, where I usually keep apples, that my memory says put them there; I don't even really know that hand is my hand. Okay I'm really tired so I may not be writing all that clearly. This is also difficult to express, and explain how I came to doubt such elemental things, and how I (frequently) directly experience things that make me doubt direct experience. Let's just say that, often, I cannot be sure I am not in a very convincing virtual, simulated reality. As an experiment, spend a few days looking at your experience that way, and see what happens. |
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So what can be said about 
