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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Mar 16, 2014 13:52:39 GMT -5
I am impressed! 79% turnout. 93% vote to become part of Russia. How can anyone in his right mind not accept this referendum as legitimate? How can any democrat deny this overwhelming majority their right for self-determination?
I hope the people of Lugansk, Kharkov, Donetsk will be inspired by this.
Arisha, you say Russians are passive when it comes to protests. Look at how many people demostrated that were in favour of Putin's actions!
If you think that the Yats government is not criminal then you are simply deluded and grossly misinformed. They have exactly zero legitimacy. I would bet a lot that the Yats government will be a lot worse for the Ukrainians than the Yanukovich government ever was.
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Post by arisha on Mar 16, 2014 17:46:21 GMT -5
BB, look at how many people demonstrated that were against Putin's actions! Many more! 93%? Do you really believe in those numbers, or you just want to believe because of your love to Putin? There were multiple violations at voting : obozrevatel.com/politics/24816-vo-vremya-referenduma-v-kryimu-lyudej-vpisyivali-v-spiski-pryamo-vozle-urn-i-golosovali-mertvyimi-dushami.htmobozrevatel.com/politics/05192-komitet-izbiratelej-ukrainyi-soobschaet-o-massovyih-falsifikatsiyah-vo-vremya-psevdoreferenduma-v-kryimu.htmobozrevatel.com/politics/68509-perechen-narushenij-vo-vremya-provedeniya-referenduma-v-kryimu.htmYes, Russians are passive, otherwise they wouldn't have been under the Soviet regime for 70(!) years. They were killed in GULAG, arrested and taken into prison without investigation, just because the neighbor wrote the report to KGB, - it lasted for 70 years. I don't know any other nation which is more patient and passive. Do you know any? . Russia is isolated from the whole world now because of the Crimean referendum. If, according to you, the whole world is not in right mind, - then you are too much deluded and misinformed. Don't be so much deluded, it's ridiculous.
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Post by arisha on Mar 16, 2014 18:49:44 GMT -5
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Mar 17, 2014 6:41:15 GMT -5
Beautiful!
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Post by arisha on Mar 17, 2014 18:27:12 GMT -5
It means the war may start. The war can never be beautiful.
You don't understand that Putin doesn't care about those Russians in the Crimea. He needs more power. He wants to restore the Soviet Union. He is afraid of Maidan. That is the reason why he invaded the Crimea, and will go to Kiev.
BB, have you ever visited Russia? Not as a boy, but as an adult ? Do you know that you would never agree to live in Russia after you have lived in Germany ? The lower level of culture and civilization cannot be better than the higher level of culture. Russia lags at least two centuries behind as compared to the Western countries. In all spheres of culture and civilized life. When people just cross the border coming to Russia they immediately feel that they are in a different world. No more smiles, polite treatment and good friendly attitude between people ( as compared to the West, of course. What I am saying about can be seen and understood when compared .) The custom officers are watching with wicked eyes, people are pushing each other when passing by, without saying "I am sorry". Here, in America, when you look at somebody, they always say "Hi!" to you, and smile, and show their friendliness. I think it is the same in Europe. But not in Russia. It is probably due to the history and to the past, because Russia always lagged behind. It doesn't mean I am trying to insult Russians, - don't say that, don't try to distort what I want to say. I am Russian who had lived in Russia almost all my life. Now I am living in America, and I just try to share what I see. I am not the only one who sees that. The lower level of culture can be seen in all spheres of life, and a lot of problems Russia experiences are due to that lagging behind. They want to be not worse than others. But they do nothing, or very little for that. They envy the better life the European people have, but they have no idea how to reach the same level. And the only way to have better life is to work a lot. I can compare how Americans work, - and how Russians work. The comparison indicates that Russians don't try to be perfect, and Americans do try to be perfect in all. The same can be said about Germans, and Europeans. That's why they live better. Russians don't want to hear about that. They also don't want to accept the truth about their level of culture. Then how to do anything, how go change things for the better? To raise the level of culture means to see their own lagging behind and then changing that. It also means to start saying good polite words to each other, - and not only that, - but to be able to feel, sincerely feel what is behind those words. It means to be well-bread, better educated - from the very young age - and to behave with other people without interfering with their interests. In other words - to make the norms which the civilized people have as a part of their behavior with each other, - their own norms. In order to do that everybody has to be more critical about themselves. And to wish to change.
You don't behave like a Russian here, on the forum. I've been on Russian forums recently, and I saw so much intolerance, rudeness, vulgar behavior, even cruelty there that I prefer never participate in those forums anymore. That's why I say that you don't get what Russia and what Putin are. You should visit Russia first, see it with your own eyes, - then you won't be naive and so much deluded, but will have some better understanding.
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Post by arisha on Mar 18, 2014 2:29:46 GMT -5
This is how Russians live, in the village...not in the capital... This is the Western part of Russia, Smolensk region.
The Eastern part lives even worse: The abandoned villages of Siberia:
The Urals:
They collapsed after perestroika, under Putin's rule as well.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2014 8:10:58 GMT -5
I am impressed! 79% turnout. 93% vote to become part of Russia. How can anyone in his right mind not accept this referendum as legitimate? How can any democrat deny this overwhelming majority their right for self-determination? Unfortunately, the 'legitimacy' of that referendum is going to be denied in official history. What sort of 3rd party monitoring was going on to ensure it's legitimacy? I have very little doubt that a strong majority of the people of Crimea wanted this, and I support self-determination. I just wish the legitimacy factor had been more carefully managed so that western critics could look even more idiotic than they already look -- denying the legitimacy well before the referendum had even taken place! But now the official story in the West is going to be that Crimeans were forced to vote for secession under the barrel of a gun/gas.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2014 8:43:00 GMT -5
This is how Russians live, in the village...not in the capital... This is the Western part of Russia, Smolensk region. arisha, you know you can find the destitute anywhere?
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Mar 18, 2014 9:19:48 GMT -5
I am impressed! 79% turnout. 93% vote to become part of Russia. How can anyone in his right mind not accept this referendum as legitimate? How can any democrat deny this overwhelming majority their right for self-determination? Unfortunately, the 'legitimacy' of that referendum is going to be denied in official history. What sort of 3rd party monitoring was going on to ensure it's legitimacy? I have very little doubt that a strong majority of the people of Crimea wanted this, and I support self-determination. I just wish the legitimacy factor had been more carefully managed so that western critics could look even more idiotic than they already look -- denying the legitimacy well before the referendum had even taken place! But now the official story in the West is going to be that Crimeans were forced to vote for secession under the barrel of a gun/gas. darussophile.com/2014/03/five-myths-about-the-crimean-referendum/Crimea invited international monitors, but they said that they won't participate because Kiev hasn't invited them. So Crimea invited whatever international monitors that were willing to come and they noticed no irregularities. I think the main point against the legitimacy of the referendum is that Ukrainian constirution doesn't allow it. But how can anyone use the Ukrainian constitution against the legitimacy of the referendum? Fascists took power with a coup, the west considers them to be legitimate, there is no way to remove them except by civil war... the Ukrainian consitution is already de facto abandoned, so for me the Ukrainian constitution is not a valid argument. I just see no way how to make it more legitimate (except in details). The monitors were invited, the Ukrainian constitution is abandoned, Crimeans don't want to part of the new regime, so they choose. Let's be honest, if the sides were turned and Crimea were a region trying to become part of some western country, there would be no dissent in the western media, they would all be saying that everything is perfectly legitimate and they would all be celebrating now. What I am noticing in the people's sentiment in Germany is that the majority is seeing through the lies. MSM is bombarding them with the lie, but if you look in the comments section of the articles then a clear majority is calling them out on the lie. The media right now is like a parallel reality, and people notice this. I don't have time to monitor other countries, but at least in Germany it's pretty clear.
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Post by arisha on Mar 18, 2014 12:53:53 GMT -5
This is how Russians live, in the village...not in the capital... This is the Western part of Russia, Smolensk region. arisha, you know you can find the destitute anywhere? There are 11,000 villages like those, and 290 cities.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2014 13:10:14 GMT -5
arisha, you know you can find the destitute anywhere? There are 11,000 villages like those, and 290 cities. And how has the poverty changed in Russia relative to changes in poverty in other countries? Please refer to data if you are going to make this argument. Shouldn't be too hard to find.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Mar 18, 2014 17:51:25 GMT -5
Some more context.
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Post by arisha on Mar 19, 2014 2:17:02 GMT -5
There are 11,000 villages like those, and 290 cities. And how has the poverty changed in Russia relative to changes in poverty in other countries? Please refer to data if you are going to make this argument. Shouldn't be too hard to find. I tried to find, but I didn't find anything that is better or similar to the table which BB found. Interesting data! So, Armenia is the best, and the Ukraine is the worst.... And it had the best achievements in the economics before 1990. What looks really strange for me, it's Uzbekistan, it's ahead of Russia, according to the data. I can't believe in that. I remember there were so many refugees from Uzbekistan, - they were living in the railway stations, on the floor, with a lot of small children, were walking around begging for food, some people were sitting on the ground in winter, with kids, - it was in the 90-s. I have a friend, a refugee from Uzbekistan, she is Russian. She visited Uzbekistan in 2004. She said that plants and factories didn't work, almost all Russians left the country, Uzbeks came to the cities from their villages in the mountains and robbed houses and buildings. She said her apartment was left with no furniture, with nothing, windows broken. No law, no police. At the time there were Russians there they built factories, worked at those factories, - Uzbeks were not able to work without Russians, they are mostly illiterate people without education. How is it possible that just ten years later Uzbekistan has such great achievements in economics? Sveta told me about their habits and customs. The poverty was awful. Parents left children of any age alone at home and went to work. The kids were given just a piece of bread in the morning, - they were eating it till night, nothing else. Spent most of the time outside, till parents come home in the evening. An Uzbek woman had about 20 dresses which she got as a present when she got married. She had been wearing just one dress during a year, - sleeping in it, and going out. Then, the next year, she was wearing a different dress from those 20, - again during the whole year, and so on. Those who made carpets lived better. They made little girls be making those carpets because they had thin enough fingers for that. Starting from six or eight those girls were not allowed to do anything except making carpets, from morning till night, they never went to school. I can't imagine that those Uzbeks have changed so much, and are ahead of Russia in their economic achievements!
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Mar 19, 2014 7:19:04 GMT -5
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Mar 20, 2014 6:12:57 GMT -5
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