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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 18:08:52 GMT -5
Hi Silver, The words "non-duality" are just a linguistic pointing at a kind of Gnosis that is uncomunicatable. Trying to "wrap your mind" around non-duality is about as pointless as trying to define God or Love with complete accuracy and understanding.....and yet, everyone tries to do it at some point lol Let the words "non-duality" pull you toward a different exploring a different way of knowing than the intellect...not toward another area of knowledge for you to expand on. non-duality has no "flavors", but as each human is unique, each will create their own "flavor" in how they relate to, or communicate non-duality. non-duality does not contain different flavors, as it does not contain differentiation...but in our communication with each other, we can only interact Mind to Mind, and his contains differentiation and "flavors". If you would gnosis non-duality, investigate the source of differentiation within you, and when you have become aware of what appears to be the "source" of the appearence of differentiation, investigate the means to let get appearence of differentiation and merge into the source from which differentiation appears. logistically, this is as easy as just sitting still and looking inward for the source of appearences and experiences, both mental and physical....look for the source of everything that you "inward" and "outward" experience.
Once you find the source, and merge the seeker of the source into the source, you probably won't have anymore concerns about being able to "understand" duality and non-duality lolThanks, steve for that advice. The underscored is very clear to me. :-) Once you've uncovered the source, let your femininity take over, men tend to try and "penetrate" the source, but the "right" approach is to open, and let go.
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Post by silence on Jul 21, 2013 22:48:07 GMT -5
I don't in anyway shape or form see myself as a nondualist or someone journeying into nonduality. All I can say is that spirituality at large is simply about being fully alive and discovering what is preventing that.
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Post by silver on Jul 21, 2013 23:35:28 GMT -5
I've been here at this forum for a year, and while soaking in the stuff this place has to offer, I still find myself not quite gellin' with non-duality and all the more closely related subjects. (Even though I've had 'experiences' off and on from childhood to now that point in non-duality's direction). I'm finding myself getting rebuffed by who I call Frog Daddy (Enigma) - the big kahuna around these parts - some ignore him, some work around him, some - like myself - manage to find we're always in some sort of confrontation with him. All this has been mighty interesting, but haven't been able to satisfy my curiosity and thirst for what in blazes is really going on here with non-duality! I posted a comment about 'flavors' of non-duality and I decided to raise the question, about are there many flavors - or even just a few - of non-duality? I figure the answer has to be yes, but I want to know what - if any - variations are out there that you more experienced ones can help to more clearly define. Thanking you in advance for your ideas or advice. Hi Silver, The words "non-duality" are just a linguistic pointing at a kind of Gnosis that is uncomunicatable. Trying to "wrap your mind" around non-duality is about as pointless as trying to define God or Love with complete accuracy and understanding.....and yet, everyone tries to do it at some point lol Let the words "non-duality" pull you toward a different exploring a different way of knowing than the intellect...not toward another area of knowledge for you to expand on. non-duality has no "flavors", but as each human is unique, each will create their own "flavor" in how they relate to, or communicate non-duality. non-duality does not contain different flavors, as it does not contain differentiation...but in our communication with each other, we can only interact Mind to Mind, and his contains differentiation and "flavors". If you would gnosis non-duality, investigate the source of differentiation within you, and when you have become aware of what appears to be the "source" of the appearence of differentiation, investigate the means to let get appearence of differentiation and merge into the source from which differentiation appears. logistically, this is as easy as just sitting still and looking inward for the source of appearences and experiences, both mental and physical....look for the source of everything that you "inward" and "outward" experience. Once you find the source, and merge the seeker of the source into the source, you probably won't have anymore concerns about being able to "understand" duality and non-duality lol I know that a lot of you say that there is no mind - or there's a collective mind of sorts - I'm not going to worry about that, because like I said, I do rez with the last bit of your post and I understand that 'feeling' about the 'you' that is eternal - the spirit or soul is what I call it. From what I've read, there can be dangers with this letting go stuff - for example Midnight - who came here looking for help. I also just watched a dramatization of one of the people who died in a tent ceremony that she paid $10 grand for, hoping to improve her life - along with several other people - which points up that one needs to be very careful whom they follow and keep your wits about you and not allow one's self to be led around by the nose like that. Even though these are just words on a page, the ideas that we choose to take away from these online encounters can cost us. This is why I choose to continue to respect and venerate the mind. After all - even those who have had nde's / oobe's still can't find a way to prove their intense experiences - even though I've had at least one that I know of - and it seemed as real as anything - but our minds may be a tricky customer, but it's also what I believe holds 'it' all together for us. They lost their physical lives - but if one follows just anything without a full comprehension of it, physical life isn't the only thing at stake. Each of us needs to come into our own authority. I hope that makes some sense to you.
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Post by silence on Jul 21, 2013 23:39:11 GMT -5
Hi Silver, The words "non-duality" are just a linguistic pointing at a kind of Gnosis that is uncomunicatable. Trying to "wrap your mind" around non-duality is about as pointless as trying to define God or Love with complete accuracy and understanding.....and yet, everyone tries to do it at some point lol Let the words "non-duality" pull you toward a different exploring a different way of knowing than the intellect...not toward another area of knowledge for you to expand on. non-duality has no "flavors", but as each human is unique, each will create their own "flavor" in how they relate to, or communicate non-duality. non-duality does not contain different flavors, as it does not contain differentiation...but in our communication with each other, we can only interact Mind to Mind, and his contains differentiation and "flavors". If you would gnosis non-duality, investigate the source of differentiation within you, and when you have become aware of what appears to be the "source" of the appearence of differentiation, investigate the means to let get appearence of differentiation and merge into the source from which differentiation appears. logistically, this is as easy as just sitting still and looking inward for the source of appearences and experiences, both mental and physical....look for the source of everything that you "inward" and "outward" experience. Once you find the source, and merge the seeker of the source into the source, you probably won't have anymore concerns about being able to "understand" duality and non-duality lol I know that a lot of you say that there is no mind - or there's a collective mind of sorts - I'm not going to worry about that, because like I said, I do rez with the last bit of your post and I understand that 'feeling' about the 'you' that is eternal - the spirit or soul is what I call it. From what I've read, there can be dangers with this letting go stuff - for example Midnight - who came here looking for help. I also just watched a dramatization of one of the people who died in a tent ceremony that she paid $10 grand for, hoping to improve her life - along with several other people - which points up that one needs to be very careful whom they follow and keep your wits about you and not allow one's self to be led around by the nose like that. Even though these are just words on a page, the ideas that we choose to take away from these online encounters can cost us. This is why I choose to continue to respect and venerate the mind. After all - even those who have had nde's / oobe's still can't find a way to prove their intense experiences - even though I've had at least one that I know of - and it seemed as real as anything - but our minds may be a tricky customer, but it's also what I believe holds 'it' all together for us. They lost their physical lives - but if one follows just anything without a full comprehension of it, physical life isn't the only thing at stake. Each of us needs to come into our own authority. I hope that makes some sense to you. It might be more helpful if you viewed nonduality as a rejection of following anyone or anything. All you have left is your own thoughts. Are they true?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 23:46:23 GMT -5
Hi Silver, The words "non-duality" are just a linguistic pointing at a kind of Gnosis that is uncomunicatable. Trying to "wrap your mind" around non-duality is about as pointless as trying to define God or Love with complete accuracy and understanding.....and yet, everyone tries to do it at some point lol Let the words "non-duality" pull you toward a different exploring a different way of knowing than the intellect...not toward another area of knowledge for you to expand on. non-duality has no "flavors", but as each human is unique, each will create their own "flavor" in how they relate to, or communicate non-duality. non-duality does not contain different flavors, as it does not contain differentiation...but in our communication with each other, we can only interact Mind to Mind, and his contains differentiation and "flavors". If you would gnosis non-duality, investigate the source of differentiation within you, and when you have become aware of what appears to be the "source" of the appearence of differentiation, investigate the means to let get appearence of differentiation and merge into the source from which differentiation appears. logistically, this is as easy as just sitting still and looking inward for the source of appearences and experiences, both mental and physical....look for the source of everything that you "inward" and "outward" experience. Once you find the source, and merge the seeker of the source into the source, you probably won't have anymore concerns about being able to "understand" duality and non-duality lol I know that a lot of you say that there is no mind - or there's a collective mind of sorts - I'm not going to worry about that, because like I said, I do rez with the last bit of your post and I understand that 'feeling' about the 'you' that is eternal - the spirit or soul is what I call it. From what I've read, there can be dangers with this letting go stuff - for example Midnight - who came here looking for help. I also just watched a dramatization of one of the people who died in a tent ceremony that she paid $10 grand for, hoping to improve her life - along with several other people - which points up that one needs to be very careful whom they follow and keep your wits about you and not allow one's self to be led around by the nose like that. Even though these are just words on a page, the ideas that we choose to take away from these online encounters can cost us. This is why I choose to continue to respect and venerate the mind. After all - even those who have had nde's / oobe's still can't find a way to prove their intense experiences - even though I've had at least one that I know of - and it seemed as real as anything - but our minds may be a tricky customer, but it's also what I believe holds 'it' all together for us. They lost their physical lives - but if one follows just anything without a full comprehension of it, physical life isn't the only thing at stake. Each of us needs to come into our own authority. I hope that makes some sense to you. Forget about the letting go part for now, as you are attaching letting go with life stuff, and thats not what I was talking about...you will not know what I was talking about until you uncover the source of all experiences, and you will not uncover that source via an intellectual or philosophical investigation...you will only uncover it by being still and observing. Observe your thoughts, observe your sensory perceptions, and see if you can observe where they come from....take note that I did not say "figure out" where they come from, I said look for, or observe where they come from.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 23:48:08 GMT -5
Don't look with thoughts, look with looking.
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Post by silver on Jul 22, 2013 0:00:37 GMT -5
Don't look with thoughts, look with looking. That sounds simple, but imagining how to do that is not. It sounds like you have to physically open your eyes really wide.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2013 0:11:44 GMT -5
Don't look with thoughts, look with looking. That sounds simple, but imagining how to do that is not. It sounds like you have to physically open your eyes really wide. Haha...stop imagining how to do it, and do it lol Look at an object very intently, without word thoughts, just for a moment look at it without word thoughts, then close your eyes and continue to try to look at it, look with your mind, not your eyes....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2013 0:17:18 GMT -5
Try looking with your eyes closed ;-)
You can't see much with your eyes this way, but the act of looking can still be felt....looking does not require the eyes.
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Post by silver on Jul 22, 2013 0:19:41 GMT -5
That sounds simple, but imagining how to do that is not. It sounds like you have to physically open your eyes really wide. Haha...stop imagining how to do it, and do it lol Look at an object very intently, without word thoughts, just for a moment look at it without word thoughts, then close your eyes and continue to try to look at it, look with your mind, not your eyes.... Ah. Like in meditation. No wonder I've been so confused.
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Post by serpentqueen on Jul 22, 2013 7:41:39 GMT -5
Haha...stop imagining how to do it, and do it lol Look at an object very intently, without word thoughts, just for a moment look at it without word thoughts, then close your eyes and continue to try to look at it, look with your mind, not your eyes.... Ah. Like in meditation. No wonder I've been so confused. I'm lousy at meditation - the type where you keep your eyes closed, sit still, and look inward. I found it worked better for me to "meditate" with eyes wide open, and often while walking rather than sitting still. Possibly this is a form of ATA, I dunno. Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]." ... it doesn't matter which direction you look, inward or outward.... it's all one and the same....
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Post by quinn on Jul 22, 2013 8:15:10 GMT -5
... it doesn't matter which direction you look, inward or outward.... it's all one and the same.... Ah, I'd have to disagree with that. Well, sort of disagree. It's true they're one and the same in reality, but most people don't really see 'outward' when they look because there's so much going on inside. It's a filtered 'outward'. What's happening around us is less important to notice than what we're thinking about what's happening around us. Or feeling about it. Oh, and it's impossible to be lousy at meditation.
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Post by serpentqueen on Jul 22, 2013 10:11:11 GMT -5
... it doesn't matter which direction you look, inward or outward.... it's all one and the same.... Ah, I'd have to disagree with that. Well, sort of disagree. It's true they're one and the same in reality, but most people don't really see 'outward' when they look because there's so much going on inside. It's a filtered 'outward'. What's happening around us is less important to notice than what we're thinking about what's happening around us. Or feeling about it. Oh, and it's impossible to be lousy at meditation. I guess I shouldn't say I'm lousy at meditation. I am lousy at the discipline of sitting for a set period of time each day to "meditate" as a separate activity, as in "now we are going to practice meditation." Whereas for years I've been watching my thoughts as I go about my day. When I realized they are not trustworthy (roughly 15 years ago), I started watching what they were up to. Emotions are the same too -- not all feelings are trustworthy. It took me longer to conclude sensory perceptions are also not trustworthy. For me - this particular human critter- looking inward greatly ramps up thoughts, emotions, sensory perceptions rather than quieting them down. I find it a lot, lot easier to still the thoughts by focusing on the external instead -- looking at a beautiful sunset, or a tree, or amazing piece of architecture, or into someone's eyes. It brings me up out of myself. Thoughts may still kick in, as they are apt to do (creating metaphors about frisbee, obsessing over syncs, reacting to strangers on the internet), but I find it easier in this mode to step back and see what the thoughts are up to, sneaky little buggers. What I've been seeing lately is that the "I" arises as a defense mechanism when faced with the reality of no separation. Well, I hope that explains. All I am trying to suggest is that inward/meditation is not the only way to go, and for some, it is not the best way. In the end, everyone finds their own way. And of course this is all just a "story" -- mind is trying to stitch together to explain it as a process that unfolded in time. It's creating logic and memories and order out of events, that make sense to mind. Cuz that's what mind does. It labels "inner" vs "outer" and "still" vs "motion" and "this experience" before "that experience" and "better" vs "best" and so on and so on. In the end, whether it's internal content or external content it's all just content, no? (Waving hands around emphatically to show you what I mean!)
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Post by Beingist on Jul 22, 2013 10:23:51 GMT -5
Ah, I'd have to disagree with that. Well, sort of disagree. It's true they're one and the same in reality, but most people don't really see 'outward' when they look because there's so much going on inside. It's a filtered 'outward'. What's happening around us is less important to notice than what we're thinking about what's happening around us. Or feeling about it. Oh, and it's impossible to be lousy at meditation. I guess I shouldn't say I'm lousy at meditation. I am lousy at the discipline of sitting for a set period of time each day to "meditate" as a separate activity, as in "now we are going to practice meditation." Whereas for years I've been watching my thoughts as I go about my day. When I realized they are not trustworthy (roughly 15 years ago), I started watching what they were up to. Emotions are the same too -- not all feelings are trustworthy. It took me longer to conclude sensory perceptions are also not trustworthy. For me - this particular human critter- looking inward greatly ramps up thoughts, emotions, sensory perceptions rather than quieting them down.
Yes to the bold, and to add that that's the whole point. Looking inward highlights the thoughts and emotions that we are to look at and allow. Looking outward, NOT inward is the easiest thing in the world to do, which is why 99.9999999% of the global population does it. Sounds like you're just trying to better your experience. Yeah, that's one way for the 'I' to poke its head up. Otherwise, I get what you mean about 'being lousy at meditation'. Like you, I watch the thoughts constantly. Meditation, then, sorta becomes pointless, like drinking to get drunk when you're already drunk.
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Post by serpentqueen on Jul 22, 2013 11:55:15 GMT -5
I guess I shouldn't say I'm lousy at meditation. I am lousy at the discipline of sitting for a set period of time each day to "meditate" as a separate activity, as in "now we are going to practice meditation." Whereas for years I've been watching my thoughts as I go about my day. When I realized they are not trustworthy (roughly 15 years ago), I started watching what they were up to. Emotions are the same too -- not all feelings are trustworthy. It took me longer to conclude sensory perceptions are also not trustworthy. For me - this particular human critter- looking inward greatly ramps up thoughts, emotions, sensory perceptions rather than quieting them down.
Yes to the bold, and to add that that's the whole point. Looking inward highlights the thoughts and emotions that we are to look at and allow. Looking outward, NOT inward is the easiest thing in the world to do, which is why 99.9999999% of the global population does it.Sounds like you're just trying to better your experience. Yeah, that's one way for the 'I' to poke its head up. Otherwise, I get what you mean about 'being lousy at meditation'. Like you, I watch the thoughts constantly. Meditation, then, sorta becomes pointless, like drinking to get drunk when you're already drunk. I guess I am in the 0.000000001% then, such a special snowflake, I am. Okay, reflecting on past "process," looking outward used to be easy, then it got all freaky, because there was no separation and yet everyone kept insisting there was. Confusing. So I turned inward for awhile instead - that seemed safer. "something must be wrong with me" .. let the comparisons, fault finding, and personal growth hamster wheel begin! But as I looked and looked inward and searched for a compass I found no "there, there." (This is when the shrink told me I was having an "identity" crisis). So then I went back to looking outward. It worked for awhile, it was just normal every day looking. Actually my hubby takes some credit here because he's always had this marvelous way of interrupting my belly button gazing to make sure I don't miss the beautiful sunset or whatever. Everything was fine, but then it got freaky again. But this time, I decided to just roll with it, and try a different approach... That's when it became a huge exercise in exploring what the outward appearances were reflecting about the inward experience. There were some amazing revelations. It led me down all sorts of interesting areas of inquiry. Mostly, it was just a fun & entertaining game, until I took a long long detour into Messiah /magical woo woo land, because I still held the belief it said something about "me." The "I" arises because I do not want to be a messiah - that idea scares the heck out of me. LOL. So with final collapse, it lead all the way back to where it started: there's no separation. Which I already knew... until around 8 years old.
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