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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 13:53:14 GMT -5
We do have choice, it's just limited to either Love or Separation... Separation is always the choice. Yes, for you separation is always the choice, even if it isn't...
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Post by silver on Jun 25, 2013 13:53:31 GMT -5
That doesn't make much sense to me, because I don't think it would prove anything - overall - and I think that would be far too complicated - IF you're meaning that every single decision made is involved - I think it would be downright impossible - It's a totally improbable suggestion. For safety's sake alone, I would say nix on that. Then try it out on the decisions that won't have a huge impact on your life. When sitting at a restaurant, choose the meal that is least appetizing to you. When deciding what TV show to watch put on the least entertaining. Exercise your supposed ability to choose differently. What it will prove or not prove can only be known after the exercise is seriously attempted for a fair amount of time. My proposal, and this is taken from having done an exercise like this, is that you will quickly become irate and frustrated, short fused. Then the mind will start coming up for rationalizations for ending the experiment early. Your decisions are not exercises of choices, they are expressions of preferences. The choice is made for you and the ability to choose otherwise (acting against your preferences) causes a negative experience. You know exercising your choice to act out of accord with your innate preferences results in negative experiences and so you rationalize away the need to perform and the value of the experiment. You have no choice but to act in accord with your preferences. Your preferences are not something you have choice about. Ok, thanks for that clarification. But, I totally disagree with you. Since a person taking on that experiment knows that it will end, a performance-oriented person - one who enjoys a challenge, would probably do quite well. I think I would do well for a couple of reasons I can think of - and am surprised that you think this would be a difficult thing to attempt. I think that because of the many unpleasant things that happened in my life, I was forced to deal with it, in whatever ways - I had to accept the 'unacceptable' and have also had many moments while thinking about all of these things about counting my blessings (I know - boring huh) and other thoughts that would keep me from psychically bottoming out. I don't even have a TV, but I do watch hulu online on occasion - I know it was just an example. I'm a person who enjoys variety and trying new things - so choosing foods I wouldn't normally get isn't a problem. I really think this test would only 'prove' that it's all about not just how we choose things or not, but simple preferences and coping mechanisms.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 13:54:50 GMT -5
If you don't believe in choice than it becomes very hard to make the right one. Without choice how would it be possible to drop the tendencies that you use to separate yourself from peeps in your relationships? We do have choice, it's just limited to either Love or Separation... What determines which of those choices will be made? Desire...
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Post by Beingist on Jun 25, 2013 13:56:19 GMT -5
That doesn't make much sense to me, because I don't think it would prove anything - overall - and I think that would be far too complicated - IF you're meaning that every single decision made is involved - I think it would be downright impossible - It's a totally improbable suggestion. For safety's sake alone, I would say nix on that. Then try it out on the decisions that won't have a huge impact on your life. When sitting at a restaurant, choose the meal that is least appetizing to you. When deciding what TV show to watch put on the least entertaining. Exercise your supposed ability to choose differently. What it will prove or not prove can only be known after the exercise is seriously attempted for a fair amount of time. My proposal, and this is taken from having done an exercise like this, is that you will quickly become irate and frustrated, short fused. Then the mind will start coming up for rationalizations for ending the experiment early. Your decisions are not exercises of choices, they are expressions of preferences. The choice is made for you and the ability to choose otherwise (acting against your preferences) causes a negative experience. You know exercising your choice to act out of accord with your innate preferences results in negative experiences and so you rationalize away the need to perform and the value of the experiment. You have no choice but to act in accord with your preferences. Your preferences are not something you have choice about. I hafta admit, Top, this is without question the most effective argument I've ever heard regarding preferences or choices. You've convinced me, anyway, and I'm not easily convincible (just ask E ) Some questions--your preferences are not something you have a choice about, but .... where do they come from--conditioning? And, then, what is it that prefers anything--the body, the mind, or what you are? Forgive me for asking misconceived questions (I was scarred by that whole thing, I swear), but they're sincere.
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Post by quinn on Jun 25, 2013 13:57:38 GMT -5
What determines which of those choices will be made? Desire...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 13:57:58 GMT -5
Separation is always the choice. Would you be willing to expand on that? I was just riffing off trf. If being a separate volitional person is the grand illusion, and "making willful choices" is the behavior, then the fact that a choice has been made already means that the belief in separation is present. So there is only choice if there is belief in separation. Only from that vantage point can a choice be made. But it's just philosophical BS for me really. BS can be fun though!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 13:59:06 GMT -5
Separation is always the choice. Yes, for you separation is always the choice, even if it isn't... prezactly
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Post by silver on Jun 25, 2013 14:00:50 GMT -5
Then try it out on the decisions that won't have a huge impact on your life. When sitting at a restaurant, choose the meal that is least appetizing to you. When deciding what TV show to watch put on the least entertaining. Exercise your supposed ability to choose differently. What it will prove or not prove can only be known after the exercise is seriously attempted for a fair amount of time. My proposal, and this is taken from having done an exercise like this, is that you will quickly become irate and frustrated, short fused. Then the mind will start coming up for rationalizations for ending the experiment early. Your decisions are not exercises of choices, they are expressions of preferences. The choice is made for you and the ability to choose otherwise (acting against your preferences) causes a negative experience. You know exercising your choice to act out of accord with your innate preferences results in negative experiences and so you rationalize away the need to perform and the value of the experiment. You have no choice but to act in accord with your preferences. Your preferences are not something you have choice about. I hafta admit, Top, this is without question the most effective argument I've ever heard regarding preferences or choices. You've convinced me, anyway, and I'm not easily convincible (just ask E ) Some questions--your preferences are not something you have a choice about, but .... where do they come from--conditioning? And, then, what is it that prefers anything--the body, the mind, or what you are? Forgive me for asking misconceived questions (I was scarred by that whole thing, I swear), but they're sincere. I think this must be a guy / gal thing. I thought it was pretty lame as arguments go. ...Which I think shows that guys are not so very flexible in thinking / deciding what it is they WANT or think they NEED.
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Post by andrew on Jun 25, 2013 14:02:12 GMT -5
That doesn't make much sense to me, because I don't think it would prove anything - overall - and I think that would be far too complicated - IF you're meaning that every single decision made is involved - I think it would be downright impossible - It's a totally improbable suggestion. For safety's sake alone, I would say nix on that. Then try it out on the decisions that won't have a huge impact on your life. When sitting at a restaurant, choose the meal that is least appetizing to you. When deciding what TV show to watch put on the least entertaining. Exercise your supposed ability to choose differently. What it will prove or not prove can only be known after the exercise is seriously attempted for a fair amount of time. My proposal, and this is taken from having done an exercise like this, is that you will quickly become irate and frustrated, short fused. Then the mind will start coming up for rationalizations for ending the experiment early. Your decisions are not exercises of choices, they are expressions of preferences. The choice is made for you and the ability to choose otherwise (acting against your preferences) causes a negative experience. You know exercising your choice to act out of accord with your innate preferences results in negative experiences and so you rationalize away the need to perform and the value of the experiment. You have no choice but to act in accord with your preferences. Your preferences are not something you have choice about. We do have the ability to change our preferences. NLP'ers do it a lot...for example they can deliberately create aversions to some things and make other stuff more compelling. Its used commonly for addictions and stuff like that.
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Post by Beingist on Jun 25, 2013 14:03:22 GMT -5
I hafta admit, Top, this is without question the most effective argument I've ever heard regarding preferences or choices. You've convinced me, anyway, and I'm not easily convincible (just ask E ) Some questions--your preferences are not something you have a choice about, but .... where do they come from--conditioning? And, then, what is it that prefers anything--the body, the mind, or what you are? Forgive me for asking misconceived questions (I was scarred by that whole thing, I swear), but they're sincere. I think this must be a guy / gal thing. I thought it was pretty lame as arguments go. ...Which I think shows that guys are not so very flexible in thinking / deciding what it is they WANT or think they NEED. Sorry, Ag, but ... what in the world are you talking about?
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Post by silver on Jun 25, 2013 14:08:04 GMT -5
I think this must be a guy / gal thing. I thought it was pretty lame as arguments go. ...Which I think shows that guys are not so very flexible in thinking / deciding what it is they WANT or think they NEED. Sorry, Ag, but ... what in the world are you talking about? Sorry you don't get it, B. Maybe you have to be a female to understand, or maybe you have to be older and more experienced or both. I don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 14:14:49 GMT -5
Would you be willing to expand on that? I was just riffing off trf. If being a separate volitional person is the grand illusion, and "making willful choices" is the behavior, then the fact that a choice has been made already means that the belief in separation is present. So there is only choice if there is belief in separation. Only from that vantage point can a choice be made. But it's just philosophical BS for me really. BS can be fun though! The choice I'm talking about is to turn the attention away from the beingness that we are. As demonstrated by your thoughts which are quite right by the way...
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Post by topology on Jun 25, 2013 15:08:31 GMT -5
Then try it out on the decisions that won't have a huge impact on your life. When sitting at a restaurant, choose the meal that is least appetizing to you. When deciding what TV show to watch put on the least entertaining. Exercise your supposed ability to choose differently. What it will prove or not prove can only be known after the exercise is seriously attempted for a fair amount of time. My proposal, and this is taken from having done an exercise like this, is that you will quickly become irate and frustrated, short fused. Then the mind will start coming up for rationalizations for ending the experiment early. Your decisions are not exercises of choices, they are expressions of preferences. The choice is made for you and the ability to choose otherwise (acting against your preferences) causes a negative experience. You know exercising your choice to act out of accord with your innate preferences results in negative experiences and so you rationalize away the need to perform and the value of the experiment. You have no choice but to act in accord with your preferences. Your preferences are not something you have choice about. We do have the ability to change our preferences. NLP'ers do it a lot...for example they can deliberately create aversions to some things and make other stuff more compelling. Its used commonly for addictions and stuff like that. You're looking at the wrong level of preferences. Who would use NLP to start a smoking habit from not being in one? The preference is to end it. What is being changed is habituation and possible priming the programming at a lower level to hedge for a more preferred outcome. When two desires compete equally, there is room to feed either one, which you choose to feed is selected by preference, your nature at that moment.
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Post by andrew on Jun 25, 2013 15:13:09 GMT -5
We do have the ability to change our preferences. NLP'ers do it a lot...for example they can deliberately create aversions to some things and make other stuff more compelling. Its used commonly for addictions and stuff like that. You're looking at the wrong level of preferences. Who would use NLP to start a smoking habit from not being in one? The preference is to end it. What is being changed is habituation and possible priming the programming at a lower level to hedge for a more preferred outcome. When two desires compete equally, there is room to feed either one, which you choose to feed is selected by preference, your nature at that moment. I dunno about levels of preference, I'm just saying preferences can be changed.
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Post by topology on Jun 25, 2013 15:18:49 GMT -5
Then try it out on the decisions that won't have a huge impact on your life. When sitting at a restaurant, choose the meal that is least appetizing to you. When deciding what TV show to watch put on the least entertaining. Exercise your supposed ability to choose differently. What it will prove or not prove can only be known after the exercise is seriously attempted for a fair amount of time. My proposal, and this is taken from having done an exercise like this, is that you will quickly become irate and frustrated, short fused. Then the mind will start coming up for rationalizations for ending the experiment early. Your decisions are not exercises of choices, they are expressions of preferences. The choice is made for you and the ability to choose otherwise (acting against your preferences) causes a negative experience. You know exercising your choice to act out of accord with your innate preferences results in negative experiences and so you rationalize away the need to perform and the value of the experiment. You have no choice but to act in accord with your preferences. Your preferences are not something you have choice about. I hafta admit, Top, this is without question the most effective argument I've ever heard regarding preferences or choices. You've convinced me, anyway, and I'm not easily convincible (just ask E ) Some questions--your preferences are not something you have a choice about, but .... where do they come from--conditioning? And, then, what is it that prefers anything--the body, the mind, or what you are? Forgive me for asking misconceived questions (I was scarred by that whole thing, I swear), but they're sincere. To the first, I make a distinction between conditioning (culture, habituation, traumatic experiences, Pavlovian conditioning) and nature (personality, sensitivities, allergies, tastes, aesthetic). I don't see Enigma making that distinction all the time, he seems to call it all conditioning. Preferences would encompass both conditioning and nature. To the second, its mostly guess as to the source of the preferences. I have inferred that much of them are genetic/biological, inheriting personality traits or pre-dispositions from my parents. Much of them are from my personality, no idea where the personality originates from before conditioning starts shaping it into a combination of nature and nurture. It's just how the thought-form moves.
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