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Post by topology on Jun 25, 2013 11:16:58 GMT -5
Greetings.. If that is truly a choice, I have no idea how to make that choice. I can't help doing what I do. It arises of its own accord. I choose to wish you well with that perspective.. keep in mind, you are free to choose otherwise.. Be well.. I can't choose unless a choice is perceived. I am not in control of how things are perceived.
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Post by silver on Jun 25, 2013 11:33:50 GMT -5
Greetings.. I choose to wish you well with that perspective.. keep in mind, you are free to choose otherwise.. Be well.. I can't choose unless a choice is perceived. I am not in control of how things are perceived. Hi Top. Can you refresh my memory as to what does perceive, then? Or give a good link to a previous discussion?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 11:43:50 GMT -5
Penetrating any of the Zen koans concerning volition instantly puts this issue to rest. Ahab in the novel "Moby Di#k" asks, "Is it I or God who lifts this hand?" If someone opens his/her mouth in answer to this question, the truth of the matter is thereby overlooked. Far be it from me to overlook the truth, but isn't the question itself the question at hand? (and so on.) Can you point me to some more volition koans, ZD?
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Post by Beingist on Jun 25, 2013 11:49:07 GMT -5
Penetrating any of the Zen koans concerning volition instantly puts this issue to rest. Ahab in the novel "Moby Di#k" asks, "Is it I or God who lifts this hand?" If someone opens his/her mouth in answer to this question, the truth of the matter is thereby overlooked. **Lifts hand**
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 11:50:42 GMT -5
Penetrating any of the Zen koans concerning volition instantly puts this issue to rest. Ahab in the novel "Moby Di#k" asks, "Is it I or God who lifts this hand?" If someone opens his/her mouth in answer to this question, the truth of the matter is thereby overlooked. **Lifts hand**
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Post by topology on Jun 25, 2013 12:06:46 GMT -5
I can't choose unless a choice is perceived. I am not in control of how things are perceived. Hi Top. Can you refresh my memory as to what does perceive, then? Or give a good link to a previous discussion? You tell me, what is perceiving on your end of things and do you have any control over how it perceives? Me sending words your way isn't going to do much unless you check those words against your experience.
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Post by silver on Jun 25, 2013 12:15:28 GMT -5
Hi Top. Can you refresh my memory as to what does perceive, then? Or give a good link to a previous discussion? You tell me, what is perceiving on your end of things and do you have any control over how it perceives? Me sending words your way isn't going to do much unless you check those words against your experience. Well, I'm automagically doing that, Top. You know or should reasonably know that one of the key peeps here that I rez with the most on most issues is Tzu, so I feel that we as individuals make our choices - and yes, I think all is included - your way of looking at the matter and my own sense that there's direct choosing going on - but not after the individual has run their own conscious and subconscious quality control on the attendant issues regarding said choice - not unlike a Rube Goldberg contraption, heh.
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Post by topology on Jun 25, 2013 12:36:09 GMT -5
You tell me, what is perceiving on your end of things and do you have any control over how it perceives? Me sending words your way isn't going to do much unless you check those words against your experience. Well, I'm automagically doing that, Top. You know or should reasonably know that one of the key peeps here that I rez with the most on most issues is Tzu, so I feel that we as individuals make our choices - and yes, I think all is included - your way of looking at the matter and my own sense that there's direct choosing going on - but not after the individual has run their own conscious and subconscious quality control on the attendant issues regarding said choice - not unlike a Rube Goldberg contraption, heh. If you truly have the power of choice, then intentionally exercise that choice for a period of two weeks and do the opposite of what your default inclination would be. Check and see if that ability to choose differently is real.
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Post by silver on Jun 25, 2013 12:45:54 GMT -5
Well, I'm automagically doing that, Top. You know or should reasonably know that one of the key peeps here that I rez with the most on most issues is Tzu, so I feel that we as individuals make our choices - and yes, I think all is included - your way of looking at the matter and my own sense that there's direct choosing going on - but not after the individual has run their own conscious and subconscious quality control on the attendant issues regarding said choice - not unlike a Rube Goldberg contraption, heh. If you truly have the power of choice, then intentionally exercise that choice for a period of two weeks and do the opposite of what your default inclination would be. Check and see if that ability to choose differently is real. That doesn't make much sense to me, because I don't think it would prove anything - overall - and I think that would be far too complicated - IF you're meaning that every single decision made is involved - I think it would be downright impossible - It's a totally improbable suggestion. For safety's sake alone, I would say nix on that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 12:53:52 GMT -5
Well, I'm automagically doing that, Top. You know or should reasonably know that one of the key peeps here that I rez with the most on most issues is Tzu, so I feel that we as individuals make our choices - and yes, I think all is included - your way of looking at the matter and my own sense that there's direct choosing going on - but not after the individual has run their own conscious and subconscious quality control on the attendant issues regarding said choice - not unlike a Rube Goldberg contraption, heh. If you truly have the power of choice, then intentionally exercise that choice for a period of two weeks and do the opposite of what your default inclination would be. Check and see if that ability to choose differently is real. If you don't believe in choice than it becomes very hard to make the right one. Without choice how would it be possible to drop the tendencies that you use to separate yourself from peeps in your relationships? We do have choice, it's just limited to either Love or Separation...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 13:15:11 GMT -5
We do have choice, it's just limited to either Love or Separation... Separation is always the choice.
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Post by quinn on Jun 25, 2013 13:40:29 GMT -5
Are they actually escaping their conditioning, or was there new conditioning available - a mentor, or an inspiring book, or any number of things that opened them to new possibilities? I didn't say anything about a "no-volition belief". I didn't suggest that you said anything about "no-volition belief".. Are you suggesting that exposure to new options is the same as 'conditioning'? Be well? Sure. And 'suggesting' is a key word here - or more like examining the possibility. Not just exposure, but the concurrence of exposure and 'ready to hear'. Ready to hear seems to be a product of personality and past experience. And those just...happened. Of course choices also appear and choosing happens. But which choice I make doesn't seem to be anything other than a meeting point of all these factors. Do you see it differently?
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Post by quinn on Jun 25, 2013 13:41:30 GMT -5
If you truly have the power of choice, then intentionally exercise that choice for a period of two weeks and do the opposite of what your default inclination would be. Check and see if that ability to choose differently is real. If you don't believe in choice than it becomes very hard to make the right one. Without choice how would it be possible to drop the tendencies that you use to separate yourself from peeps in your relationships? We do have choice, it's just limited to either Love or Separation... What determines which of those choices will be made?
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Post by quinn on Jun 25, 2013 13:42:26 GMT -5
We do have choice, it's just limited to either Love or Separation... Separation is always the choice. Would you be willing to expand on that?
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Post by topology on Jun 25, 2013 13:42:38 GMT -5
If you truly have the power of choice, then intentionally exercise that choice for a period of two weeks and do the opposite of what your default inclination would be. Check and see if that ability to choose differently is real. That doesn't make much sense to me, because I don't think it would prove anything - overall - and I think that would be far too complicated - IF you're meaning that every single decision made is involved - I think it would be downright impossible - It's a totally improbable suggestion. For safety's sake alone, I would say nix on that. Then try it out on the decisions that won't have a huge impact on your life. When sitting at a restaurant, choose the meal that is least appetizing to you. When deciding what TV show to watch put on the least entertaining. Exercise your supposed ability to choose differently. What it will prove or not prove can only be known after the exercise is seriously attempted for a fair amount of time. My proposal, and this is taken from having done an exercise like this, is that you will quickly become irate and frustrated, short fused. Then the mind will start coming up for rationalizations for ending the experiment early. Your decisions are not exercises of choices, they are expressions of preferences. The choice is made for you and the ability to choose otherwise (acting against your preferences) causes a negative experience. You know exercising your choice to act out of accord with your innate preferences results in negative experiences and so you rationalize away the need to perform and the value of the experiment. You have no choice but to act in accord with your preferences. Your preferences are not something you have choice about.
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