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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 15, 2013 23:37:00 GMT -5
Actually, in reading it again, the whole paragraph isn't registering, so yes there's a lot of confusion on my part. I don't get how emptiness relates to dependent origination, and I don't get how dependent origination relates to 'no permanent independent existence'. Does stuff have temporary independent existence? The idea that everything is put together from other pieces doesn't seem to relate to emptiness, but you do seem to be relating it to dependent origination, which is where my comment came from that it doesn't relate. However, it sounds like I may have connected the dots incorrectly. No it doesn't on it's face at all does it? Takes a few thousand years of slicing and dicing and some really nifty toys to get there! This is a comment on the previous post by Enigma also. It just goes back to how Buddhism defines emptiness, and my earlier post. emptiness = no independent origination, nothing permanent. Also, Buddha wasn't too interested in metaphysics, he was just concerned about liberating people. He said that if you get shot by an arrow, you don't need to find out who shot you and why to fix the wound, just fix the wound. I'm not sure Buddhism speaks as to where stuff comes from......... no-self in Buddhism counters Atman in Hinduism ( permanent immortal self which is equal to Brahman,)......... sdp
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Post by silence on Jun 16, 2013 0:00:21 GMT -5
No it doesn't on it's face at all does it? Takes a few thousand years of slicing and dicing and some really nifty toys to get there! This is a comment on the previous post by Enigma also. It just goes back to how Buddhism defines emptiness, and my earlier post. emptiness = no independent origination, nothing permanent. Also, Buddha wasn't too interested in metaphysics, he was just concerned about liberating people. He said that if you get shot by an arrow, you don't need to find out who shot you and why to fix the wound, just fix the wound. I'm not sure Buddhism speaks as to where stuff comes from......... no-self in Buddhism counters Atman in Hinduism ( permanent immortal self which is equal to Brahman,)......... sdp Luckily you don't actually need to sort out these details. Just be willing to let go of what you made out of thin air and let the rest take care of itself.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 16, 2013 8:06:48 GMT -5
This is a comment on the previous post by Enigma also. It just goes back to how Buddhism defines emptiness, and my earlier post. emptiness = no independent origination, nothing permanent. Also, Buddha wasn't too interested in metaphysics, he was just concerned about liberating people. He said that if you get shot by an arrow, you don't need to find out who shot you and why to fix the wound, just fix the wound. I'm not sure Buddhism speaks as to where stuff comes from......... no-self in Buddhism counters Atman in Hinduism ( permanent immortal self which is equal to Brahman,)......... sdp Luckily you don't actually need to sort out these details. Just be willing to let go of what you made out of thin air and let the rest take care of itself. Well..........it's not actually made out of thin air. We have the perfect hardware, couldn't be better. But cultural conditioning contains multiple viruses so our software needs debugging. "Buddha-mind" is right there underneath the malware, but it can't function because of the defects that society, friends, family and whoever else, puts on us (from birth). It isn't thin air because it's in our neural network, garbage in, garbage out. We can have a realization but then the real work begins towards actual liberation, getting free of the viruses that compose the cultural mask. Interior spiritual practice debugs and gets us back to the perfect hardware, and Buddha-mind. sdp
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2013 9:35:36 GMT -5
Just listened to Steven Grey's interpretation of Sandokai this morning. It's a free download mp3 from his website. In the same ballpark as this theme. Below is probably not the same translation as he used, but whatev:
Harmony of Difference and Equality (Sandôkai)
The mind of the great sage of India is intimately transmitted from west to east.
While human faculties are sharp or dull, the Way has no northern or southern ancestors.
The spiritual source shines clear in the light; the branching streams flow on in the dark.
Grasping at things is surely delusion, according with sameness is still not enlightenment.
[X] All the objects of the senses transpose and do not transpose.
Transposing, they are linked together; not transposing, each keeps its place.
Sights vary in quality and form; sounds differ as pleasing or harsh.
Darkness merges refined and common words; brightness distinguishes clear and murky phrases.
The four elements return to their natures, Just as a child turns to its mother.
Fire heats, wind moves, water wets, earth is solid.
Eye and sights, ear and sounds, nose and smells, tongue and tastes;
Thus for each and every thing, according to the roots, the leaves spread forth.
Trunk and branches share the essence; revered and common, each has its speech.
In the light there is darkness, but don't take it as darkness;
In the dark there is light, but don't see it as light.
Light and dark oppose one another like the front and back foot in walking.
[X] Each of the myriad things has its merit, expressed according to function and place.
Existing phenomenally like box and cover joining; according with principle like arrow points meeting.
[X] Hearing the words, understand the meaning; don't establish standards of your own.
Not understanding the Way before your eyes, how do you know the path you walk?
Walking forward is not a matter of far or near, but if you are confused, mountains and rivers block your way.
[Y] I respectfully urge you who study the mystery, [Y] don't pass your days and nights in vain.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2013 9:36:22 GMT -5
Is emptiness=form just another oneness thingy?
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Post by Beingist on Jun 16, 2013 9:37:30 GMT -5
Is emptiness=form just another oneness thingy? No, it's a Buddhist thingy, to me.
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Post by silence on Jun 16, 2013 12:01:53 GMT -5
Luckily you don't actually need to sort out these details. Just be willing to let go of what you made out of thin air and let the rest take care of itself. Well..........it's not actually made out of thin air. We have the perfect hardware, couldn't be better. But cultural conditioning contains multiple viruses so our software needs debugging. "Buddha-mind" is right there underneath the malware, but it can't function because of the defects that society, friends, family and whoever else, puts on us (from birth). It isn't thin air because it's in our neural network, garbage in, garbage out. We can have a realization but then the real work begins towards actual liberation, getting free of the viruses that compose the cultural mask. Interior spiritual practice debugs and gets us back to the perfect hardware, and Buddha-mind. sdp This is a perfect example of what I mean. The whole perfect hardware with multiple viruses and software debugging alongside multiple selves and buddha-mind can go right down to the toilet and you won't need to look back.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2013 12:51:10 GMT -5
Well..........it's not actually made out of thin air. We have the perfect hardware, couldn't be better. But cultural conditioning contains multiple viruses so our software needs debugging. "Buddha-mind" is right there underneath the malware, but it can't function because of the defects that society, friends, family and whoever else, puts on us (from birth). It isn't thin air because it's in our neural network, garbage in, garbage out. We can have a realization but then the real work begins towards actual liberation, getting free of the viruses that compose the cultural mask. Interior spiritual practice debugs and gets us back to the perfect hardware, and Buddha-mind. sdp This is a perfect example of what I mean. The whole perfect hardware with multiple viruses and software debugging alongside multiple selves and buddha-mind can go right down to the toilet and you won't need to look back. Manual flush is only necessary a few times, then it becomes automatic.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2013 14:57:54 GMT -5
Well..........it's not actually made out of thin air. We have the perfect hardware, couldn't be better. But cultural conditioning contains multiple viruses so our software needs debugging. "Buddha-mind" is right there underneath the malware, but it can't function because of the defects that society, friends, family and whoever else, puts on us (from birth). It isn't thin air because it's in our neural network, garbage in, garbage out. We can have a realization but then the real work begins towards actual liberation, getting free of the viruses that compose the cultural mask. Interior spiritual practice debugs and gets us back to the perfect hardware, and Buddha-mind. sdp This is a perfect example of what I mean. The whole perfect hardware with multiple viruses and software debugging alongside multiple selves and buddha-mind can go right down to the toilet and you won't need to look back. Heh, well wouldn't that thought inherently include the toilet as a repository of thoughts as well as the thought of one not needing to look back? Or maybe it's a conceptual black hole kinda thingy?
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Post by laughter on Jun 16, 2013 15:27:16 GMT -5
Is emptiness=form just another oneness thingy? no, not really ... the objectification in this instance is dynamic rather than static
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Post by laughter on Jun 16, 2013 15:28:47 GMT -5
This is a perfect example of what I mean. The whole perfect hardware with multiple viruses and software debugging alongside multiple selves and buddha-mind can go right down to the toilet and you won't need to look back. Heh, well wouldn't that thought inherently include the toilet as a repository of thoughts as well as the thought of one not needing to look back? Or maybe it's a conceptual black hole kinda thingy? you've skewered yourself on a pointer Mr. Fake.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2013 15:39:12 GMT -5
Heh, well wouldn't that thought inherently include the toilet as a repository of thoughts as well as the thought of one not needing to look back? Or maybe it's a conceptual black hole kinda thingy? you've skewered yourself on a pointer Mr. Fake. The pointers are the floaters which resist being flushed down the conceptual toilet...hehehe
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 16, 2013 16:24:49 GMT -5
Well..........it's not actually made out of thin air. We have the perfect hardware, couldn't be better. But cultural conditioning contains multiple viruses so our software needs debugging. "Buddha-mind" is right there underneath the malware, but it can't function because of the defects that society, friends, family and whoever else, puts on us (from birth). It isn't thin air because it's in our neural network, garbage in, garbage out. We can have a realization but then the real work begins towards actual liberation, getting free of the viruses that compose the cultural mask. Interior spiritual practice debugs and gets us back to the perfect hardware, and Buddha-mind. sdp This is a perfect example of what I mean. The whole perfect hardware with multiple viruses and software debugging alongside multiple selves and buddha-mind can go right down to the toilet and you won't need to look back. So, silence is completely free and does nothing from compulsion? sdp
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Post by laughter on Jun 16, 2013 16:24:50 GMT -5
you've skewered yourself on a pointer Mr. Fake. The pointers are the floaters which resist being flushed down the conceptual toilet...hehehe
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jun 16, 2013 17:57:47 GMT -5
Is emptiness=form just another oneness thingy? The equation attempts to show that it is self-contradictory to think of existence in terms of form and substance. Our naive belief is that we are apprehending only forms and the nature of form is that it functions as a signifier that points to the signified. In this view the fundamental difference between signifier and signified is that the signifier is exactly not real, and that only the signified is real, namely by virtue of being a non-signifying entity. By definition of the logical structure we naively use we assume that we apprehend only forms and this implies (here we leave the naive view) that we can't interrogate the signified in order to discover how the world really is and whether or not this logical structure is an accurate representation of how things really are. Instead we must analyze whether forms themselves have substance, for if they are all we can apprehend, then they must be substantial if they are to communicate a truth about the world. However, in our definition we already said that forms are merely a signifier, therefore forms are inherently without substance and therefore empty. Then we discover the possibility of treating this emptiness as substance and thus enabling us to keep using the old formalism, albeit with the modification that the definition of substance is now "emptiness". Here we must continue our analysis and discover that insofar as emptiness is instantiated only within our reflection on form it effectively functions as a signifier (i.e. as form, therefore it is not a non-signifying entity) and thus can't possibly be defined to be a substance. That's how we get the equation "form is emptiness, emptiness is form". Notice that we have not once consulted any of our senses. All we have done is thinking. In other words all the equation says is that it is per definitionem contradictory to think of the world in terms of form and substance.
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