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Post by james on Jan 28, 2013 5:47:02 GMT -5
James, in the process of getting clear about your aspirations/desires, did the very act of doing the process enable you to experience clarity? Do I need to hire a word lawyer I wonder.... If you have a follow-up point I'd say you can probably skip the 'leading questions' bit and go straight in with the proposition. It'll save the forum server some processing and storage. If you don't have a pre-loaded follow-up point of practical value then I'll probably duck the question if that's OK, since it seems a bit academic. Edit: What I mean is, I can see the very distinct possibility of my mind making up some reasonably convincing sounding answer, which we may then debate for a while. I guess I could try giving you an honest answer actually, avoiding the minding: "I don't know".
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Post by andrew on Jan 28, 2013 5:59:22 GMT -5
James, in the process of getting clear about your aspirations/desires, did the very act of doing the process enable you to experience clarity? Do I need to hire a word lawyer I wonder.... If you have a follow-up point I'd say you can probably skip the 'leading questions' bit and go straight in with the proposition. It'll save the forum server some processing and storage. If you don't have a pre-loaded follow-up point of practical value then I'll probably duck the question if that's OK, since it seems a bit academic. Oh, I wasn't trying to be tricky or catch you out. I have an idea of where I am going, but it depended on your answer. I will assume that doing the process came with some clarity, and that is simply because what we focus on, we get more of. The fact that when we focus on what we desire is essentially focusing on 'words' or 'mind' really doesn't matter. Its an essential aspect of the 'Becoming' side of the Being/Becoming balance and I would say that 'mastery' is at least partly about this idea of mastering our focus and what we are placing attention on. So if you are ever feeling a bit lost or confused, then one practical way forward is to consider what you aspire to, what it will give you, and WHY you want that. Have you asked yourself...'WHY do you want freedom? What will freedom give you?' There is another side to clarity, and that is the 'Being' side, the side that offers something that is prior to the words 'clarity/freedom', and is prior to mind. I am experiencing a movement to talk about this side too, but probably best to leave that for a minute to see what you thought of the above paragraph.
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Post by enigma on Jan 28, 2013 13:07:33 GMT -5
Realization, which is how illusion is seen through, is timeless. If, by discerning, we mean the reshuffling of ideas that usually follows from realization, it may take time, just as it took time to form the beliefs to begin with. This doesn't mean that discerning is illusion. Discerning is not an illusion only in case it happens with an awaken and fully enlightened person which can hardly be found on the Earth at ALL times. Does it make sense saying that discerning is not an illusion ? Even Buddha was a Buddha Tathagata. Again, it depends on what we mean by discerning. Realization 'informs' mind by dissolving illusion. One must stop believing what is not so, and because beliefs are often stacked and layered by implication and conclusion, this can take time. It's not correct to suggest that this process of dissolution is itself illusion.
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Post by enigma on Jan 28, 2013 13:11:41 GMT -5
Don't worry about sticking with ATA. It only appeals to certain people. Just bear in mind what you want to know and attend whatever's happening. Your everyday ordinary life is the way. Do one thing at a time with full attention, and then do the next thing that has to be done with full attention. Watch without expectation, and you can't go wrong. Cheers. Yep seems similar to what Mr Tolle prescribes. Really not sure why it's so hard. When I do attend with full attention, I have this Love of life! Even the things I'd label 'not so good' take on a beauty. However, I seem to forget and carry on as before and the 'searching' kicks in again. If 'love of life' and 'beauty' are one end of the stick, you can't avoid the other end. This is not Peace.
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Post by enigma on Jan 28, 2013 13:28:37 GMT -5
Realization, which is how illusion is seen through, is timeless. If, by discerning, we mean the reshuffling of ideas that usually follows from realization, it may take time, just as it took time to form the beliefs to begin with. This doesn't mean that discerning is illusion. Realization is something that happens, so is not timeless. Realization is part of the relative/becoming. Being is timeless. Realization does not occur in time because it is not a mental process. The 'AHA!' moment or 'flash of insight' hints at this timeless quality. That mind identifies it as a happening in time is irrelevant. Nothing is realized. Realization is not the realization of some information.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 13:41:49 GMT -5
That there is a 'One that must stop believing what is not so", or that which is not One, is also a 'belief'.
If it's Truth we're after, it can't start with any preconceived thoughts, including the most spiritually intriguing ones.
True teachers don't teach doctrines, faith or beliefs, they get you to see for yourself.
We must approach Reality with bare naked attention, seeing it without any mental bias, concepts, beliefs, preconceptions, presumptions or expectations.
Huan Po, said it so beautifully, "The foolish reject what they see, not what they think; the wise reject what they think, not what they see."
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Post by andrew on Jan 28, 2013 13:50:49 GMT -5
Realization is something that happens, so is not timeless. Realization is part of the relative/becoming. Being is timeless. Realization does not occur in time because it is not a mental process. The 'AHA!' moment or 'flash of insight' hints at this timeless quality. That mind identifies it as a happening in time is irrelevant. Nothing is realized. Realization is not the realization of some information. Realization is itself a process. Something is realized. Its not - realization-ness! Realization does not happen in the realm of Being, because nothing happens in the realm of Being....its just Being. Which means realization has to happen in the realm of mind. I know that interferes with your whole schtick but there it is. Telling people that realization is timeless makes no sense, unless you are using Being and Realization inter-changeably. We are That, so there is nothing to be realized (unless there is).
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Post by zendancer on Jan 28, 2013 13:54:00 GMT -5
Yep seems similar to what Mr Tolle prescribes. Really not sure why it's so hard. When I do attend with full attention, I have this Love of life! Even the things I'd label 'not so good' take on a beauty. However, I seem to forget and carry on as before and the 'searching' kicks in again. If 'love of life' and 'beauty' are one end of the stick, you can't avoid the other end. This is not Peace. Correct. Full attention does not imply that everything will constantly come up roses (Jesus on the cross is testimony to that!). It simply means that the mind's usual shenanigans are not dominant, and there is no imaginative reinforcement of the usual illusions. If you are fully washing the dishes, for example, "you" are not there because there is no reflective process occuring. "You," as you think yourself to be, appear and disappear throughout the day as discursive reflection starts and stops. If the mind is momentarily quiescent, as happens while washing dishes with full attention, there is pure awareness without any idea of personhood. Personhood only returns when ideation returns. ATA, shikan taza, and most other meditative techniques (other than mindfulness) simply take attention away from thoughts so that they are more likely to be seen through. Mindfulness will also do this, but because thoughts are "sticky" this approach has an obvious limitation. Everyone on the path of non-duality is aware that there are no guarantees (which is something that enormously irritated Question), but a better way of thinking about the issue is probabilistically. People who meditate or regularly shift attention to what is happening in the present moment (and thereby become people of action) have a higher probability of seeing through thought-created illusions than people who spend most of their time reflecting, fantasizing, analyzing, calculating, evaluating, etc. Tolle's essential message is to leave head-trips behind and spend more time attending what is here and now. In a similar vein, people who stop thinking in terms of "shoulds" and "oughts" and accept reality as it is will generally be happier than people who constantly compare what is happening to their ideas about what they THINK should be happening. The happiest and most peaceful people rarely waste any time thinking about happiness, peace, their own state of mind, themselves, ideals, or what other people think about them. They are not blissfully unaware; they are blissfully BEING THIS in full awareness rather than THINKING ABOUT THIS.
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Post by andrew on Jan 28, 2013 14:00:55 GMT -5
Yep seems similar to what Mr Tolle prescribes. Really not sure why it's so hard. When I do attend with full attention, I have this Love of life! Even the things I'd label 'not so good' take on a beauty. However, I seem to forget and carry on as before and the 'searching' kicks in again. If 'love of life' and 'beauty' are one end of the stick, you can't avoid the other end. This is not Peace. Its true that those are not Peace, because Peace is defined so as to point prior to (or away from) anything that can be said, but equally therefore, there is no such 'thing' AS Peace. It points away only. In this message it sounds a little like you are pointing to something that actually has reality, or exists. Love of life is an important thing and seeing beauty is wonderful.
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Post by enigma on Jan 28, 2013 15:04:55 GMT -5
That there is a 'One that must stop believing what is not so", or that which is not One, is also a 'belief'. If it's Truth we're after, it can't start with any preconceived thoughts, including the most spiritually intriguing ones. Well, but it has to. Where it begins is with a passel of preconceived thoughts. And not so oddly, they talk about ideas in hopes of getting you to look and see beyond the ideas for yourself. Nobody here is 'teaching doctrines, faith or belief'. Yes, when it's time. There are some who can't read the words in a post no matter how many times it's read, and to ask this person to approach Reality in that way is completely unreasonable and futile. It's necessary to begin at the beginning rather than the end. Most can't tell the difference.
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Post by enigma on Jan 28, 2013 15:15:04 GMT -5
Realization does not occur in time because it is not a mental process. The 'AHA!' moment or 'flash of insight' hints at this timeless quality. That mind identifies it as a happening in time is irrelevant. Nothing is realized. Realization is not the realization of some information. Realization is itself a process. Something is realized. Its not - realization-ness! Realization does not happen in the realm of Being, because nothing happens in the realm of Being....its just Being. Which means realization has to happen in the realm of mind. I know that interferes with your whole schtick but there it is. Telling people that realization is timeless makes no sense, unless you are using Being and Realization inter-changeably. We are That, so there is nothing to be realized (unless there is). If and when you ever actually realize 'something', you'll change your schtick. Until then, talking about it is pointless.
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Post by enigma on Jan 28, 2013 15:21:34 GMT -5
If 'love of life' and 'beauty' are one end of the stick, you can't avoid the other end. This is not Peace. Correct. Full attention does not imply that everything will constantly come up roses (Jesus on the cross is testimony to that!). It simply means that the mind's usual shenanigans are not dominant, and there is no imaginative reinforcement of the usual illusions. If you are fully washing the dishes, for example, "you" are not there because there is no reflective process occuring. "You," as you think yourself to be, appear and disappear throughout the day as discursive reflection starts and stops. If the mind is momentarily quiescent, as happens while washing dishes with full attention, there is pure awareness without any idea of personhood. Personhood only returns when ideation returns. ATA, shikan taza, and most other meditative techniques (other than mindfulness) simply take attention away from thoughts so that they are more likely to be seen through. Mindfulness will also do this, but because thoughts are "sticky" this approach has an obvious limitation. Everyone on the path of non-duality is aware that there are no guarantees (which is something that enormously irritated Question), but a better way of thinking about the issue is probabilistically. People who meditate or regularly shift attention to what is happening in the present moment (and thereby become people of action) have a higher probability of seeing through thought-created illusions than people who spend most of their time reflecting, fantasizing, analyzing, calculating, evaluating, etc. Tolle's essential message is to leave head-trips behind and spend more time attending what is here and now. In a similar vein, people who stop thinking in terms of "shoulds" and "oughts" and accept reality as it is will generally be happier than people who constantly compare what is happening to their ideas about what they THINK should be happening. The happiest and most peaceful people rarely waste any time thinking about happiness, peace, their own state of mind, themselves, ideals, or what other people think about them. They are not blissfully unaware; they are blissfully BEING THIS in full awareness rather than THINKING ABOUT THIS. Yes. In a way we could say peeps are on this forum trying to exhaust all the infinite thinking possibilities. Hehe.
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Post by enigma on Jan 28, 2013 15:23:02 GMT -5
If 'love of life' and 'beauty' are one end of the stick, you can't avoid the other end. This is not Peace. Its true that those are not Peace, because Peace is defined so as to point prior to (or away from) anything that can be said, but equally therefore, there is no such 'thing' AS Peace. It points away only. In this message it sounds a little like you are pointing to something that actually has reality, or exists. Love of life is an important thing and seeing beauty is wonderful. I can't help what it sounds like to you.
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Post by andrew on Jan 28, 2013 15:32:34 GMT -5
Realization is itself a process. Something is realized. Its not - realization-ness! Realization does not happen in the realm of Being, because nothing happens in the realm of Being....its just Being. Which means realization has to happen in the realm of mind. I know that interferes with your whole schtick but there it is. Telling people that realization is timeless makes no sense, unless you are using Being and Realization inter-changeably. We are That, so there is nothing to be realized (unless there is). If and when you ever actually realize 'something', you'll change your schtick. Until then, talking about it is pointless. Hehe whether I have realized something or not, is not the point. It doesn't take a guru to understand that Being is timeless and in this realm there is nothing happening. Zip. Nada. De rien. Realization can only occur at the level of Becoming/mind. Hence why, theoretically, there is nothing to be realized. You already are That.
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Post by andrew on Jan 28, 2013 15:33:55 GMT -5
Its true that those are not Peace, because Peace is defined so as to point prior to (or away from) anything that can be said, but equally therefore, there is no such 'thing' AS Peace. It points away only. In this message it sounds a little like you are pointing to something that actually has reality, or exists. Love of life is an important thing and seeing beauty is wonderful. I can't help what it sounds like to you. True. So you are not suggesting that Peace has reality? You are not proposing it to be a quale are you?
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