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Post by zendancer on Jan 27, 2013 13:22:24 GMT -5
The mind doesn't rest as a result of getting its questions answered; it comes to rest when we see through the questions, when we see through the incessant drive to know.- adyashanti This quote sums it up. Each serious seeker is driven to ask his/her questions until the questioning is seen through. Behind every question is the assumption that there is a person asking the question. This is the fundamental illusion. All this stuff about discernment, clarity of purpose, freedom, etc. is mindstuff added on top of other mindstuff. WHO needs discernment, clarity of purpose, freedom, etc? WHO is bound? Stay "outside" with ATA or go "inside" with shikan taza; take your pick, but leave "checking" at the door, and forget about making "progress." Look (either outside or inside)! Stay with non-conceptual looking and attend the activity of whatever is happening. Don't reinforce the illusion of selfhood with the habit of incessant verbal self-referentiality. The house of cards will collapse in its own good time as long as the cards aren't constantly being re-arranged or re-constructed. What will happen if personhood collapses? First, an end to the search. Second, the end of trying to control the mind, silence the mind, or direct the mind. And third, the loss of a sense of a "me in here behind the eyes" looking out at "a world out there in front of the eyes." Otherwise, things will go on just as before. The body/mind will go about its business free from the illusion there that is a little person inside the body directing activities. Life will be what it is and what it always has been---THIS, doing what THIS does. THIS writes and types and sometimes listens to ice cubes falling into a cup at McD's. It is really that simple. One other bit of off-the-wall advice is to read "Collision With the Infinite" five or six times. That book has a strange way of seeping down into the subconscious and loosening things up. Several people I know have been strongly affected by the way Segal writes about the fiction of selfhood. It may not help, but it's worth a go.
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 27, 2013 13:42:19 GMT -5
Greetings.. The mind doesn't rest as a result of getting its questions answered; it comes to rest when we see through the questions, when we see through the incessant drive to know.- adyashanti This quote sums it up. Each serious seeker is driven to ask his/her questions until the questioning is seen through. Behind every question is the assumption that there is a person asking the question. This is the fundamental illusion. All this stuff about discernment, clarity of purpose, freedom, etc. is mindstuff added on top of other mindstuff. WHO needs discernment, clarity of purpose, freedom, etc? WHO is bound? Stay "outside" with ATA or go "inside" with shikan taza; take your pick, but leave "checking" at the door, and forget about making "progress." Look (either outside or inside)! Stay with non-conceptual looking and attend the activity of whatever is happening. Don't reinforce the illusion of selfhood with the habit of incessant verbal self-referentiality. The house of cards will collapse in its own good time as long as the cards aren't constantly being re-arranged or re-constructed. What will happen if personhood collapses? First, an end to the search. Second, the end of trying to control the mind, silence the mind, or direct the mind. And third, the loss of a sense of a "me in here behind the eyes" looking out at "a world out there in front of the eyes." Otherwise, things will go on just as before. The body/mind will go about its business free from the illusion there that is a little person inside the body directing activities. Life will be what it is and what it always has been---THIS, doing what THIS does. THIS writes and types and sometimes listens to ice cubes falling into a cup at McD's. It is really that simple. One other bit of off-the-wall advice is to read "Collision With the Infinite" five or six times. That book has a strange way of seeping down into the subconscious and loosening things up. Several people I know have been strongly affected by the way Segal writes about the fiction of selfhood. It may not help, but it's worth a go. Hi ZD: 'Who' is it that offers this adivce? Who is it that discerns its self worthy of directing the self-discovery of others? Lead others to clarity, and clarity will do the rest.. attachment is the antithesis of clarity, attachment even to clarity, but.. clarity is the most direct way past attachment to 'clarity'.. Be well..
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Post by laughter on Jan 27, 2013 13:51:37 GMT -5
ZD, Thank you for that clear sane voice man. This is like really funny on one level: The body/mind will go about its business free from the illusion there that is a little person inside the body directing activities. ... the image that it evokes ... pure comedy man FWIW ... this is (has been) really really "helpful" ... if you know what I mean: Life will be what it is and what it always has been---THIS, doing what THIS does. THIS writes and types and sometimes listens to ice cubes falling into a cup at McD's. It is really that simple.
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Post by james on Jan 27, 2013 13:52:25 GMT -5
I do appear to have some kind of problem with commitment, because not so long ago I was ATA-ing. Somewhere along the line it got dropped and I didn't even notice! That is embarrassing. I mean, I do see that flitting between er... practices (for want of a better word) is extremely unlikely to help matters, and yet I've gone and done it quite a few times over the years. It isn't consciously willful. Do you think I am unconsciously trying to sabotage myself?
Not that it's any excuse, but I can kind of see an advantage in having a teacher physically accessible, with regular 'appointments' because it could help one keep on the 'straight and narrow'.
Strangely this is one of the few 'famous' books that I don't own but have been trying to get a hold of for a while. If anybody has an electronic copy, feels kind, and doesn't feel strongly about the ethical dimension of sharing this publication, maybe they could get in touch via PM.
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Post by laughter on Jan 27, 2013 14:01:20 GMT -5
For what it's worth (zero in any absolute sense) if you inquire with the mind only, you'll find an objective concensus truth that can be stated roughly as that the body isn't what it is assumed to be ... that is, the brain can't be the sole indepedant physical source of the sense of "I Am". It's a very deep rabbit hole, but to argue against it with mind only is futile. In my experience, I found the trip to be useful, but not conclusive ... rather the start of a journey than the end of one. Thanks laughter, yes I've been down that very deep rabbit hole myself and I agree with your summary (paraphrasing: useful but useless). In this exercise I'm going back to first principles but with a wholly different attitude (as recommended by Adya), which is 'meditative contemplation'. It is not a minding (well, that is probably up for debate!). Nah! no way is it up for debate from over here friend! But if you want to read a really funny and relatively recent example of such an internal debate about whether there is a "me, in this body", after the inquiry had moved out of the mind and onto the meditation bench, you might find this to be amusing.
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Post by andrew on Jan 27, 2013 14:01:48 GMT -5
James, I really feel its helpful to get clear as to whether discerning reality from illusion is what you aspire to in and of itself, or if clarity/freedom is what you aspire to, and you see discerning reality from illusion to be a means to that end (and I am not saying that it isn't). In a sense, a difference between them is that clarity/freedom is a state of being, and discerning reality from illusion is a 'doing' or a process. What that means is that clarity/freedom is theoretically always available now, whereas discerning reality from illusion is something happening 'in time'. You see what I mean? Hi Andrew. I had to go do something, which is why I only fired off a response to H, because it was quick to do before I left. I'm going to assume this post supersedes the other one you asked a short time ago, otherwise I'm going to be dealing with a backlog. I think I see what you mean, and it is a difference that I hadn't considered at all, so thanks for that. What I don't really like the sound of is to be locked into having to repeat a 'clarity process' every time an illusion (or suspected illusion) pops up in order to 'maintain'. I would say I aspire to realize (non-time bound) clarity. I was going to say that some realizations of mine have come about through discernment, but truth be told I don't think the discernment was separate from the realization, and furthermore I don't feel like I have a personal claim to the discernment (I was gifted with them). Cool, thanks for getting back to me. If freedom/clarity is what you aspire to, then you are absolutely correct that the last thing you ultimately want, is to be locked into having to maintain a clarity process (or any other process for that matter). There may well be value in a process of seeing through illusions, but I would say that at most, it is a means to an end only, and like any other process, it can have the counter effect of blocking us from just allowing clarity/freedom to be here now, regardless of whether you are discerning reality or not. So I promise you this, when clarity/freedom is the case, you really won't care much at all if you are discerning reality from illusion or not. It just wont matter, or at least it won't matter to you anymore than before any of the spiritual work had begun and you never really considered ideas of reality/illusion. So if discerning reality from illusion is a process that resonates with you, then it might be worth discerning that the very process of discerning reality from illusion, is illusion in itself (because it happens in time). You get me? Oh, I think you are correct that the discernment and the realization are not separate.
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Post by james on Jan 27, 2013 16:05:08 GMT -5
Yeah.. so I think we ended up in agreement then, no? Discernment and realization are not separate, so there can be no process of discernment.
Or is there some extra point that you are discussing here, and that I've missed?
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Post by zendancer on Jan 27, 2013 16:05:37 GMT -5
Greetings.. This quote sums it up. Each serious seeker is driven to ask his/her questions until the questioning is seen through. Behind every question is the assumption that there is a person asking the question. This is the fundamental illusion. All this stuff about discernment, clarity of purpose, freedom, etc. is mindstuff added on top of other mindstuff. WHO needs discernment, clarity of purpose, freedom, etc? WHO is bound? Stay "outside" with ATA or go "inside" with shikan taza; take your pick, but leave "checking" at the door, and forget about making "progress." Look (either outside or inside)! Stay with non-conceptual looking and attend the activity of whatever is happening. Don't reinforce the illusion of selfhood with the habit of incessant verbal self-referentiality. The house of cards will collapse in its own good time as long as the cards aren't constantly being re-arranged or re-constructed. What will happen if personhood collapses? First, an end to the search. Second, the end of trying to control the mind, silence the mind, or direct the mind. And third, the loss of a sense of a "me in here behind the eyes" looking out at "a world out there in front of the eyes." Otherwise, things will go on just as before. The body/mind will go about its business free from the illusion there that is a little person inside the body directing activities. Life will be what it is and what it always has been---THIS, doing what THIS does. THIS writes and types and sometimes listens to ice cubes falling into a cup at McD's. It is really that simple. One other bit of off-the-wall advice is to read "Collision With the Infinite" five or six times. That book has a strange way of seeping down into the subconscious and loosening things up. Several people I know have been strongly affected by the way Segal writes about the fiction of selfhood. It may not help, but it's worth a go. Hi ZD: 'Who' is it that offers this adivce? Who is it that discerns its self worthy of directing the self-discovery of others? Lead others to clarity, and clarity will do the rest.. attachment is the antithesis of clarity, attachment even to clarity, but.. clarity is the most direct way past attachment to 'clarity'.. Be well.. The same one offers advice who receives advice. There is no "other."
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Post by zendancer on Jan 27, 2013 16:09:55 GMT -5
James: I don't think that there are any electronic copies of "Collision" available. The book is out of print, but if you can't find one, PM me. I'm sure that I can find a source.
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Post by james on Jan 27, 2013 16:21:10 GMT -5
James: I don't think that there are any electronic copies of "Collision" available. The book is out of print, but if you can't find one, PM me. I'm sure that I can find a source. Thanks for the offer ZD... I 'spect there will be plenty of copies available on amazon/ebay/abebooks, if no-one has a scan. There are certain private torrent sites in which one can obtain copies of the most esoteric/obscure/old spiritual stuff imaginable, but this is just one of those things that isn't there!
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 27, 2013 16:48:45 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Hi ZD: 'Who' is it that offers this adivce? Who is it that discerns its self worthy of directing the self-discovery of others? Lead others to clarity, and clarity will do the rest.. attachment is the antithesis of clarity, attachment even to clarity, but.. clarity is the most direct way past attachment to 'clarity'.. Be well.. The same one offers advice who receives advice. There is no "other." The advice offered is excess.. the one offering has not yet made that journey.. Be well..
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Post by zendancer on Jan 27, 2013 16:55:56 GMT -5
Greetings.. The same one offers advice who receives advice. There is no "other." The advice offered is excess.. the one offering has not yet made that journey.. Be well.. Excess, appropriateness, and journeying are all figments of imagination.
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Post by silence on Jan 27, 2013 17:19:25 GMT -5
I've heard some teachers say that all desires are bad, and others say that spiritual desires are OK, etc. Desirelessness is not a prescription because you obviously end up desiring to be desireless. I know these things can't be gained/answered intellectually, but I am pretty darned convinced they need answering before rest is possible. What kind of rest are you looking for? Someone posted a Niz quote recently along the lines of trying to get something that is essentially restless in nature to be at rest. Who bothers with such a thing? I'm also interested in whether peeps think this kind of exercise is actually an impediment. The search is itself born out of confusion so anything that can narrow down what is often some vague journey towards esoteric ideals is helpful I'd say.
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Post by silence on Jan 27, 2013 17:28:43 GMT -5
[I do appear to have some kind of problem with commitment, because not so long ago I was ATA-ing. Somewhere along the line it got dropped and I didn't even notice! That is embarrassing. I mean, I do see that flitting between er... practices (for want of a better word) is extremely unlikely to help matters, and yet I've gone and done it quite a few times over the years. It isn't consciously willful. Do you think I am unconsciously trying to sabotage myself? Seems to me like your mind has just gotten really active thinking it's hot on the trail of something and it's all over the place.
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 27, 2013 17:37:42 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. The advice offered is excess.. the one offering has not yet made that journey.. Be well.. Excess, appropriateness, and journeying are all figments of imagination.As is advice, offered by the one receiving.. what imagination are you referring to, the one being imagined? Be well..
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