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Post by esponja on Jan 27, 2013 18:46:02 GMT -5
The mind doesn't rest as a result of getting its questions answered; it comes to rest when we see through the questions, when we see through the incessant drive to know.- adyashanti This quote sums it up. Each serious seeker is driven to ask his/her questions until the questioning is seen through. Behind every question is the assumption that there is a person asking the question. This is the fundamental illusion. All this stuff about discernment, clarity of purpose, freedom, etc. is mindstuff added on top of other mindstuff. WHO needs discernment, clarity of purpose, freedom, etc? WHO is bound? Stay "outside" with ATA or go "inside" with shikan taza; take your pick, but leave "checking" at the door, and forget about making "progress." Look (either outside or inside)! Stay with non-conceptual looking and attend the activity of whatever is happening. Don't reinforce the illusion of selfhood with the habit of incessant verbal self-referentiality. The house of cards will collapse in its own good time as long as the cards aren't constantly being re-arranged or re-constructed. What will happen if personhood collapses? First, an end to the search. Second, the end of trying to control the mind, silence the mind, or direct the mind. And third, the loss of a sense of a "me in here behind the eyes" looking out at "a world out there in front of the eyes." Otherwise, things will go on just as before. The body/mind will go about its business free from the illusion there that is a little person inside the body directing activities. Life will be what it is and what it always has been---THIS, doing what THIS does. THIS writes and types and sometimes listens to ice cubes falling into a cup at McD's. It is really that simple. One other bit of off-the-wall advice is to read "Collision With the Infinite" five or six times. That book has a strange way of seeping down into the subconscious and loosening things up. Several people I know have been strongly affected by the way Segal writes about the fiction of selfhood. It may not help, but it's worth a go. You have such a wonderful way of writing ZD. I'm with James on the ATA, just can't stick at it. James if you do get hold of that book could you pm me too please? The other thing that came up reading this, was 'do I really WANT to loose personhood?' I'm really not sure sometimes, maybe that's what the problem is.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 27, 2013 18:48:53 GMT -5
Greetings.. Excess, appropriateness, and journeying are all figments of imagination. As is advice, offered by the one receiving.. what imagination are you referring to, the one being imagined? Be well.. The ball has already bounced away. SL
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Post by zendancer on Jan 27, 2013 19:02:38 GMT -5
This quote sums it up. Each serious seeker is driven to ask his/her questions until the questioning is seen through. Behind every question is the assumption that there is a person asking the question. This is the fundamental illusion. All this stuff about discernment, clarity of purpose, freedom, etc. is mindstuff added on top of other mindstuff. WHO needs discernment, clarity of purpose, freedom, etc? WHO is bound? Stay "outside" with ATA or go "inside" with shikan taza; take your pick, but leave "checking" at the door, and forget about making "progress." Look (either outside or inside)! Stay with non-conceptual looking and attend the activity of whatever is happening. Don't reinforce the illusion of selfhood with the habit of incessant verbal self-referentiality. The house of cards will collapse in its own good time as long as the cards aren't constantly being re-arranged or re-constructed. What will happen if personhood collapses? First, an end to the search. Second, the end of trying to control the mind, silence the mind, or direct the mind. And third, the loss of a sense of a "me in here behind the eyes" looking out at "a world out there in front of the eyes." Otherwise, things will go on just as before. The body/mind will go about its business free from the illusion there that is a little person inside the body directing activities. Life will be what it is and what it always has been---THIS, doing what THIS does. THIS writes and types and sometimes listens to ice cubes falling into a cup at McD's. It is really that simple. One other bit of off-the-wall advice is to read "Collision With the Infinite" five or six times. That book has a strange way of seeping down into the subconscious and loosening things up. Several people I know have been strongly affected by the way Segal writes about the fiction of selfhood. It may not help, but it's worth a go. You have such a wonderful way of writing ZD. I'm with James on the ATA, just can't stick at it. James if you do get hold of that book could you pm me too please? The other thing that came up reading this, was 'do I really WANT to loose personhood?' I'm really not sure sometimes, maybe that's what the problem is. Don't worry about sticking with ATA. It only appeals to certain people. Just bear in mind what you want to know and attend whatever's happening. Your everyday ordinary life is the way. Do one thing at a time with full attention, and then do the next thing that has to be done with full attention. Watch without expectation, and you can't go wrong. Cheers.
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Post by arisha on Jan 27, 2013 19:07:34 GMT -5
Greetings.. As is advice, offered by the one receiving.. what imagination are you referring to, the one being imagined? Be well.. The ball has already bounced away. SL The ball wouldn't have bounced away be it a different question, containing agreement. The imagined ones who give their advice suddenly happen to be real ones to those imagined ones who agree with them, and they answer the questions, and behave like real ones, - but they suddenly happen to be without answers when questions do not match their imagined theories... This is what they call Truth... It is actually a game with one rule - their own rule, - and nothing else. Who needs their truth? Nobody needs it. Only their egos enjoy their own truth... Such a deluded theory, so much deluded people who follow it... Pure egos which produce the purest egoism...
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 27, 2013 19:29:04 GMT -5
Don't worry about sticking with ATA. It only appeals to certain people. Just bear in mind what you want to know and attend whatever's happening. Your everyday ordinary life is the way. Do one thing at a time with full attention, and then do the next thing that has to be done with full attention. Watch without expectation, and you can't go wrong. Cheers. I am always amazed at how Truth can sometimes hide in plain sight. Words like these above go over many heads. For this reason teachers like Jesus went straight for the dumbies while deliberately by-passing the cerebral ones draped in robes and puffed up in knowledge. ZD, perhaps you might give thought to starting a forum someday for those who know they don't know?
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 27, 2013 21:47:16 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. As is advice, offered by the one receiving.. what imagination are you referring to, the one being imagined? Be well.. The ball has already bounced away. SL A boulder falls in the river, the river changes course.. With the small modification, this level of clarity reveals a functional 'way' of living the purpose.. if one is concerned with what " has" to be done, they may miss what " can" be done.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Jan 27, 2013 22:15:45 GMT -5
So if discerning reality from illusion is a process that resonates with you, then it might be worth discerning that the very process of discerning reality from illusion, is illusion in itself (because it happens in time). You get me? Realization, which is how illusion is seen through, is timeless. If, by discerning, we mean the reshuffling of ideas that usually follows from realization, it may take time, just as it took time to form the beliefs to begin with. This doesn't mean that discerning is illusion.
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Post by arisha on Jan 27, 2013 23:43:56 GMT -5
So if discerning reality from illusion is a process that resonates with you, then it might be worth discerning that the very process of discerning reality from illusion, is illusion in itself (because it happens in time). You get me? Realization, which is how illusion is seen through, is timeless. If, by discerning, we mean the reshuffling of ideas that usually follows from realization, it may take time, just as it took time to form the beliefs to begin with. This doesn't mean that discerning is illusion. Discerning is not an illusion only in case it happens with an awaken and fully enlightened person which can hardly be found on the Earth at ALL times. Does it make sense saying that discerning is not an illusion ? Even Buddha was a Buddha Tathagata.
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Post by esponja on Jan 28, 2013 1:05:32 GMT -5
You have such a wonderful way of writing ZD. I'm with James on the ATA, just can't stick at it. James if you do get hold of that book could you pm me too please? The other thing that came up reading this, was 'do I really WANT to loose personhood?' I'm really not sure sometimes, maybe that's what the problem is. Don't worry about sticking with ATA. It only appeals to certain people. Just bear in mind what you want to know and attend whatever's happening. Your everyday ordinary life is the way. Do one thing at a time with full attention, and then do the next thing that has to be done with full attention. Watch without expectation, and you can't go wrong. Cheers. Yep seems similar to what Mr Tolle prescribes. Really not sure why it's so hard. When I do attend with full attention, I have this Love of life! Even the things I'd label 'not so good' take on a beauty. However, I seem to forget and carry on as before and the 'searching' kicks in again.
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Post by esponja on Jan 28, 2013 1:08:05 GMT -5
Don't worry about sticking with ATA. It only appeals to certain people. Just bear in mind what you want to know and attend whatever's happening. Your everyday ordinary life is the way. Do one thing at a time with full attention, and then do the next thing that has to be done with full attention. Watch without expectation, and you can't go wrong. Cheers. I am always amazed at how Truth can sometimes hide in plain sight. Words like these above go over many heads. For this reason teachers like Jesus went straight for the dumbies while deliberately by-passing the cerebral ones draped in robes and puffed up in knowledge. ZD, perhaps you might give thought to starting a forum someday for those who know they don't know? Dumbies? That'll be me!
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Post by mamza on Jan 28, 2013 2:27:49 GMT -5
You have such a wonderful way of writing ZD. I'm with James on the ATA, just can't stick at it. James if you do get hold of that book could you pm me too please? The other thing that came up reading this, was 'do I really WANT to loose personhood?' I'm really not sure sometimes, maybe that's what the problem is. Don't worry about sticking with ATA. It only appeals to certain people. Just bear in mind what you want to know and attend whatever's happening. Your everyday ordinary life is the way. Do one thing at a time with full attention, and then do the next thing that has to be done with full attention. Watch without expectation, and you can't go wrong. Cheers. It only appeals to the BEST people! *COUGHCOUGHCOUGHCOUGHCOUGHCOUGHCOUGH* Hahahahaha. Edit: For those of you who can't tell, I'm joking. *COUGHOCUGHCOUGHCOUGHCOUGH* Hahahaha.
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Post by andrew on Jan 28, 2013 3:39:07 GMT -5
Yeah.. so I think we ended up in agreement then, no? Discernment and realization are not separate, so there can be no process of discernment. Or is there some extra point that you are discussing here, and that I've missed? I think we are agreeing. I would define discernment and realization a bit differently, but would not say they are separate.
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Post by andrew on Jan 28, 2013 3:40:48 GMT -5
So if discerning reality from illusion is a process that resonates with you, then it might be worth discerning that the very process of discerning reality from illusion, is illusion in itself (because it happens in time). You get me? Realization, which is how illusion is seen through, is timeless. If, by discerning, we mean the reshuffling of ideas that usually follows from realization, it may take time, just as it took time to form the beliefs to begin with. This doesn't mean that discerning is illusion. Realization is something that happens, so is not timeless. Realization is part of the relative/becoming. Being is timeless. That's why it is useful to see that in the context of illusion, realization is illusion too. Theoretically, nothing has to be realized. We are already 'That'.
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Post by andrew on Jan 28, 2013 3:42:11 GMT -5
Realization, which is how illusion is seen through, is timeless. If, by discerning, we mean the reshuffling of ideas that usually follows from realization, it may take time, just as it took time to form the beliefs to begin with. This doesn't mean that discerning is illusion. Discerning is not an illusion only in case it happens with an awaken and fully enlightened person which can hardly be found on the Earth at ALL times. Does it make sense saying that discerning is not an illusion ? Even Buddha was a Buddha Tathagata. I was only talking about in one context i.e. in the context in which James is exploring 'illusion'. Practically speaking I think discernment is a useful thing and is worth paying attention to.
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Post by andrew on Jan 28, 2013 5:07:29 GMT -5
James, in the process of getting clear about your aspirations/desires, did the very act of doing the process enable you to experience clarity?
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