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Post by quinn on Oct 3, 2012 11:30:06 GMT -5
bottom of page 5, it finally (!) comes to light that this has nothing to do with me and my grieving - it has everything to do with Q and what they think I did 'to him'. (Getting him kicked out). Then, at the top of page 6, Reefs says let's let this thing cool down and Big E picks up the gauntlet and the knife and makes menacing gestures in my direction over said issue - which has not a darn thing to do with my dealing with the grief over the loss of my son. This is getting weirder and weirder. The knife is meant to slice away confusion/delusion. It seems to be working in the opposite direction here. ;D I haven't lost a child, Silver - I can't even imagine, and I have no idea how and for how long, I would grieve. And it would be nobody's business to evaluate that. Of course, if I felt stuck or felt something was 'off'' - and I asked for help... I can't get a handle on whether you are asking or not.
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2012 11:52:34 GMT -5
darn and drats I couldn't stay away! In my defense, cabin fever!!! A break did me some good though. So just logged on and this was first thread I read. Silver, your poetry was lovely. I can not imagine loosing one of my kids, every mother's (parent's) worse dream. There's more I'd like to write but I don't think I have the right words. We do hold onto our stories, a loss of a child would be the hardest one to let go off. I in fact, don't believe I'd ever even want to. I'm glad for your feminine emotional flavour you bring here. In saying that, go back, perhaps in a day or two and look deeply at what Reefs was trying to say/do. It was from a place of love. However, Reefs and Enigma (he he you always get dragged in E), sometimes you guys need to realise that your words sound double dutch to most on the path. It's taken me a good year to understand a lot of it, so perhaps you can look at your ways of communicating more effectively? Silver, these guys really do care. I think that's why I come back here and miss the 'love' and understanding that is actually not always there outside of the forum (and don't get me wrong, I am surrounded by very loving people). Stay with it if you can as you might find something nice comes out of it x Hey Spongy, glad you dropped by. ;D I know it seems like there's a better way to talk about this stuff, and for some (like you) there is. As I see it, there's no way around the stories of the storyteller. No matter how you approach those stories, you're going to get more stories back because that's what storytellers do. The last time the grief issue came up, Top did his best to craft a gentle approach to her and even then there was confusion and hurt. When a discussion has some 'energy', at least there's the potential for seeing our own stories because they start to get pretty wacky. There's the potential for her to notice that she's upset by one of my posts and that she doesn't know what post or what upset her. There's the potential to notice that the story that Enigma and Reefs are suffering and feel like cr*p because of something they think she did has no foundation outside of her own imagination, but that she's using this story as "consolation" to make herself feel better. (At the expense of others) There's the potential to notice that the story about peeps being upset at her for causing Q to be banned is imagination on crack. All anybody can do is offer opportunities. There are no magic words that can make anybody look.
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2012 12:09:57 GMT -5
There are all sorts of gaps. For the average unelightened human, grief is a necessary process. Someone who doesn't suffer from it after a deep personal loss could perhaps be labeled a psycopath. The period of grieving and the way it is coped with is different from person to person. I certainly would not want to walk straight into a satsang instead of a funeral service. We may grieve as we need to, and also look for our spiritual needs as we can, in whatever way that presents itself. Obviously, many people turn up to this board because it is called Spiritual Teachers. I am here as I am looking into Rose, TAT, Maharishi etc al. An enlightened person walking through a disaster zone with many dead would not be well received by asking people to work on their story when they are trying to bury the dead. Silver - art is a wonderful therapy for grief, and poetry most certainly. I wouldn't like to say that your poetry is BAD POETRY (as this thread is called) at all. You wrote what is in your heart and letting it out is touching. I see so much sincerity from you, not a pitty party. Another approach is HUMOUR, which we hear from the enlighted ones that the universe is full of. What better way than to remember your lost loved one than with humour when you are able. Smile and the universe is smiling with you. Peace to you silver FWIW, enlightenment does not eliminate grieving; if anything, it increases empathy and the free flow of feelings. People are different, and they grieve in different ways and for different periods of time. I have never met a sage (and I have met many) who would walk through a disaster zone and tell people to let go of their stories. Ryokan, the famous Zen poet, cried at times because he was lonely. He also cried when he was overcome by beauty. Once, he was asked by a friend to talk to his wayward son in an effort to get him to straighten up. The boy came for a visit, but Ryokan did not admonish him about his past behavior or tell him what he ought to do. The boy was sitting when he felt something warm and wet fall on his neck. He looked up and saw that Ryokan was crying over him. This had a profound effect upon the boy and subsequently he changed his ways. Ryokan was intimate with THIS. Thanks for the story, ZD. It says what I've tried to say many times here; that feeling is not equal to suffering. When the focus is on getting rid of the 'bad' feelings, then the search goes on forever as we add more and more strategies to our tool box.
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2012 12:13:25 GMT -5
bottom of page 5, it finally (!) comes to light that this has nothing to do with me and my grieving - it has everything to do with Q and what they think I did 'to him'. (Getting him kicked out). Then, at the top of page 6, Reefs says let's let this thing cool down and Big E picks up the gauntlet and the knife and makes menacing gestures in my direction over said issue - which has not a darn thing to do with my dealing with the grief over the loss of my son. This is getting weirder and weirder. The knife is meant to slice away confusion/delusion. It seems to be working in the opposite direction here. ;D The first step is to be clear about the confusion.
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Post by topology on Oct 3, 2012 12:24:46 GMT -5
This is getting weirder and weirder. The knife is meant to slice away confusion/delusion. It seems to be working in the opposite direction here. ;D The first step is to be clear about the confusion. I'm confused about the clarity. Given that one is in confusion and doesn't realize it, how do they become clear about the confusion, thus realizing it? Is it a willingness? Or it it more like an optical illusion where there are multiple stable interpretations (even if some of the interpretations are founded on spurious assumptions), and what is called for is a shift in perspective? www.illusionspoint.com/illusions/multiple-meaning-optical-illusions/
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2012 12:30:09 GMT -5
The first step is to be clear about the confusion. I'm confused about the clarity. Given that one is in confusion and doesn't realize it, how do they become clear about the confusion, thus realizing it? Is it a willingness? Or it it more like an optical illusion where there are multiple stable interpretations (even if some of the interpretations are founded on spurious assumptions), and what is called for is a shift in perspective? www.illusionspoint.com/illusions/multiple-meaning-optical-illusions/Both, I would say. Of course there has to be the willingness to look, and then the looking is from a larger perspective that encompasses the boundaries of the confusion.
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Post by silver on Oct 3, 2012 12:54:25 GMT -5
bottom of page 5, it finally (!) comes to light that this has nothing to do with me and my grieving - it has everything to do with Q and what they think I did 'to him'. (Getting him kicked out). Then, at the top of page 6, Reefs says let's let this thing cool down and Big E picks up the gauntlet and the knife and makes menacing gestures in my direction over said issue - which has not a darn thing to do with my dealing with the grief over the loss of my son. This is getting weirder and weirder. The knife is meant to slice away confusion/delusion. It seems to be working in the opposite direction here. ;D I haven't lost a child, Silver - I can't even imagine, and I have no idea how and for how long, I would grieve. And it would be nobody's business to evaluate that. Of course, if I felt stuck or felt something was 'off'' - and I asked for help... I can't get a handle on whether you are asking or not. I started the thread simply to initially post a poem about my loss, my experiences, to simply express myself. Not long after, Reefs comes along and changes the total complexion because there was something he refused to tell me - that what he was saying was all about his perception that I had something to do with Question being banned. So, anything Enigma or Reefs - although Reefs has said we can talk about this later in about a week - so anything Enigma says about what I initially posted is meaningless to me. I didn't come here and create this thread looking for any answers, necessarily or to be preached to. It was wholly about expression - poetry - musing - that sort of thing. So, if anyone wants to talk about Q, then there's already a thread for that.
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Post by glimmer on Oct 3, 2012 13:14:44 GMT -5
Silver, I hope you might copy your two poems from the beginning of this topic, and put them under "poetry". Poetry is a wonderful tool for exploration and I hope you go forward with it, not only for grief, but for anything that moves you.
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Post by silver on Oct 3, 2012 13:19:35 GMT -5
Silver, I hope you might copy your two poems from the beginning of this topic, and put them under "poetry". Poetry is a wonderful tool for exploration and I hope you go forward with it, not only for grief, but for anything that moves you. That's a fair idea, glimmer. I just may do that.
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2012 13:33:06 GMT -5
This is getting weirder and weirder. The knife is meant to slice away confusion/delusion. It seems to be working in the opposite direction here. ;D I haven't lost a child, Silver - I can't even imagine, and I have no idea how and for how long, I would grieve. And it would be nobody's business to evaluate that. Of course, if I felt stuck or felt something was 'off'' - and I asked for help... I can't get a handle on whether you are asking or not. I started the thread simply to initially post a poem about my loss, my experiences, to simply express myself. Not long after, Reefs comes along and changes the total complexion because there was something he refused to tell me - that what he was saying was all about his perception that I had something to do with Question being banned. So, anything Enigma or Reefs - although Reefs has said we can talk about this later in about a week - so anything Enigma says about what I initially posted is meaningless to me. I didn't come here and create this thread looking for any answers, necessarily or to be preached to. It was wholly about expression - poetry - musing - that sort of thing. So, if anyone wants to talk about Q, then there's already a thread for that. All I've said about what you originally posted was "Sorry about that". Now that I know such comments are meaningless to you, I'll refrain from posting them. Otherwise, you seem to think you own the threads you start and should be able to control what is talked about on them, and that doesn't seem conducive to open conversation. If you had a clear topic you wanted to explore, that might be a little different, though I'm still not big on thread ownership.
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Post by silver on Oct 3, 2012 13:38:56 GMT -5
I started the thread simply to initially post a poem about my loss, my experiences, to simply express myself. Not long after, Reefs comes along and changes the total complexion because there was something he refused to tell me - that what he was saying was all about his perception that I had something to do with Question being banned. So, anything Enigma or Reefs - although Reefs has said we can talk about this later in about a week - so anything Enigma says about what I initially posted is meaningless to me. I didn't come here and create this thread looking for any answers, necessarily or to be preached to. It was wholly about expression - poetry - musing - that sort of thing. So, if anyone wants to talk about Q, then there's already a thread for that. All I've said about what you originally posted was "Sorry about that". Now that I know such comments are meaningless to you, I'll refrain from posting them. Otherwise, you seem to think you own the threads you start and should be able to control what is talked about on them, and that doesn't seem conducive to open conversation. If you had a clear topic you wanted to explore, that might be a little different, though I'm still not big on thread ownership. Reefs knew what he was getting at, and he simply posted it somewhere where it shouldn't have been. If he had an issue with me over something unrelated to my initial post, he could have pm'd me or put his concern in the thread where things were being discussed about Q. That is as simple as it gets. He remained cryptic throughout his postings, and I knew there was something he was on about, that had nothing to do with my original post. I don't think it's fair to corner someone in their 'own thread' and to me, it would appear he was trying to make me look bad and perhaps make me frustrated enough to say something bad and get me into trouble. Ah well, it's the month of Halloween - so things and people won't be what they appear sometimes. I love Halloween. Always have. I love a good mystery.
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Post by silver on Oct 3, 2012 13:49:37 GMT -5
Sometimes that is a significant gesture...
Other times, it's a ploy to win an argument or whatever this is.
Ahhh...Bach. I took your comment about Reefs being the only one 'agin' you as a sign of you not being ready to explore what I was trying to say. In this case the finger is just a gesture that it's not the right time and that I'm going to take the STFU route from here. Only at the right time and the right place.
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2012 14:49:36 GMT -5
All I've said about what you originally posted was "Sorry about that". Now that I know such comments are meaningless to you, I'll refrain from posting them. Otherwise, you seem to think you own the threads you start and should be able to control what is talked about on them, and that doesn't seem conducive to open conversation. If you had a clear topic you wanted to explore, that might be a little different, though I'm still not big on thread ownership. Reefs knew what he was getting at, and he simply posted it somewhere where it shouldn't have been. Seemed to me he was talking about your grief. I'm not sure there is a better place to talk about it than a thread that you started with a poem about your grief. Reefs doesn't have a private issue with you about something, and certainly not about you causing Q to get banned. Obviously, Q caused Q to get banned and you weren't even a major player in all the conflicts. You seem to be playing with your own sense of guilt. Reefs was trying to get you to look at grief in a different way, but when he saw you spinning off in all sorts of directions, he backed off from it. He was trying to help you and you turned him into the enemy, same as you do with me. Even this is okay, and you're not being slapped for it. I'm just trying to clarify, for your own benefit, not mine. The war is going on in your own mind and there's nobody else on the battle field, which is the whole point of all of this. Yes, indirect doesn't work well with you, but then neither does direct. ;D It all sounds very dramatic and like you've been horribly victimized. I don't, however, believe there's a shred of truth to any of it.
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2012 14:52:03 GMT -5
I took your comment about Reefs being the only one 'agin' you as a sign of you not being ready to explore what I was trying to say. In this case the finger is just a gesture that it's not the right time and that I'm going to take the STFU route from here. Only at the right time and the right place. I'm trying to imagine when and where that would be if not here and now. I got nuthin.
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Post by frankshank on Oct 3, 2012 15:17:28 GMT -5
You come across as being a touch insensitive at times to me Phil (I'm not about to put myself forward for the most sensitive person award either). Maybe you don't mean to be but let's face it Silver isn't the first person to have an adverse reaction to your way with words. You're like a dog with a bone and it doesn't seem as though you care much about the bones feelings. Do you care about Silver's feelings?
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