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Post by Beingist on Feb 24, 2012 17:53:45 GMT -5
I'm not saying that there is no such thing called 'realization'. All I'm saying is that the way you're explaining it I see no difference, I just don't see what the hell this realization thingy is supposed to be. Question, I could be wrong, of course, but it almost sounds as though you have the same problem with the term, 'realization' that I have been having with 'sovereignty'. It's so weird how we can get so stuck on a single word. What we so often don't realize, is that when we give up our attachment or belief in a specific definition, it really does make us free. That's what I call realization--it's a letting go, not a grasping of understanding.
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Post by question on Feb 24, 2012 17:55:07 GMT -5
Let's say that someone is troubled by the prospect that squared circles might exist. He visits a smart man who explains why exactly squared circles can't possibly exist, the smart man explains that a squared circle is a contradiction in terms and could therefore never exist, not in any possible world. Our troubled man now understand this fully and lives happily thereafter, he never again has to waste a thought on squared circles. The process for him consisted of merely thinking the issue through, no realization magic involved, and yet the whole idea of 'squared circle' completely and utterly collapsed for him and it never troubled him again. Would you say that he experienced a realization? If yes, why wouldn't you agree that someone who by virtue of the same process agrees that selfhood, volition, seperation are unreal has NOT realized it? Yes, I would say he experienced a realization. Who's saying it's NOT a realization? I'm simple, Question. I had to read the last sentence 4 times to figure out the double negatives. Ok - I heard that selfhood was unreal. Read it, actually. And it was thoroughly explained in a way that made total sense. But at that point, it was an idea. And then I began looking, and discovered...darn - I can't pin down this self. Then there was a point - a moment of realization. The belief in a separate self dissolved. So, even with the squared circle - it's a realization. Doesn't matter that it was explained. If I was ABSOLUTELY convinced there were squared circles, it might take awhile, but at some point....the moment of realization....it collapses. No magic. Well, to me it very much looks like magic. You've just said yourself. You understood already, but you had not yet realized, and so you looked and looked and then somehow you realized something bigger than your understanding could encompass. The guy who understands that there are no squared circles and then forgets about them went through the same process as you that you described as "I heard that selfhood was unreal. Read it, actually. And it was thoroughly explained in a way that made total sense." The "it made total sense" is the part that is sufficient to let our troubled man let got of squared circles. But you see, in your case you were blessed with something much bigger.
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Post by enigma on Feb 24, 2012 17:58:10 GMT -5
About Tath: Guys, can we agree to just ignore him? It's obvious that he has psychological problems and our ridicule isn't going to do him any good. We also can't help him. The best we can do is to write him messages, but he won't listen and will only get more and more furious. So, can we please just ignore him? Maybe then he will go away? I was just thinking the same thing.
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Post by question on Feb 24, 2012 18:10:09 GMT -5
My post had nothing to do with disproving 'pointers to truth'. I was simply saying that I still have no friggin clue what 'realization' is. According to Enigma's definition I have never had a realization in my entire life. What are you talking about? You mean you never realized that the monster in the dark closet or under your bed wasn't real, and was just your imagination. Sheeesh, what kind of kid were you? Just kidding... ;D It's called understanding, not realization. I looked into the closet and under my bed and found no monster and so I figured that there is no monster. The understanding is based on evidence and evidence alone. I evidentially proved a negative (something that E claimed is logically impossible).
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Post by zendancer on Feb 24, 2012 18:10:23 GMT -5
About Tath: Guys, can we agree to just ignore him? It's obvious that he has psychological problems and our ridicule isn't going to do him any good. We also can't help him. The best we can do is to write him messages, but he won't listen and will only get more and more furious. So, can we please just ignore him? Maybe then he will go away? I was just thinking the same thing. Read my earlier post. He can no longer visit the forum.
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Post by enigma on Feb 24, 2012 18:21:19 GMT -5
what is the only TRUTH stillness...is it realizations that occur about the mind? in any form, is it "THIS", but by this we mean direct sensory experience without any other types of mental movements happening? or is truth the Essential Nature of pure awareness is TRUTH the Awareness, or what Awareness is aware "of" look closely at most of the posts here, especially the ones by ZD and Enigma, and see if they are talking about Awareness, or what awareness is aware "of".... The two go together Tath. There is nothing wrong with talking about either because one necessarily includes the other. I don't know what the truth is Tath, other than to say that it can not be 'something'. But I do know that mistake your opinion for the truth a hell of alot. As I see it, talking about awareness is a bit pointless, since there's nothing to say about it and it's not like it's hiding under a rock somewhere. However, there's quite a bit we can say about how mind can make it seem like it's hidden. If anybody finds that they can come full stop right now and be the being of the non-being being in awareness of awareness, I say go for it, though I don't have a road map for negotiating that territory. If anybody is interested in driving a wooden stake into the heart of mind's illusions, I've got a few maps laying around for that.
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Post by quinn on Feb 24, 2012 18:21:32 GMT -5
Well, to me it very much looks like magic. You've just said yourself. You understood already, but you had not yet realized, and so you looked and looked and then somehow you realized something bigger than your understanding could encompass. The guy who understands that there are no squared circles and then forgets about them went through the same process as you that you described as "I heard that selfhood was unreal. Read it, actually. And it was thoroughly explained in a way that made total sense." The "it made total sense" is the part that is sufficient to let our troubled man let got of squared circles. But you see, in your case you were blessed with something much bigger. Hummm. I don't see it as bigger, Question. It's just looking for oneself. Even squared circle guy had to look at how he was deluded, otherwise there would always have been some doubt. (Maybe smart guy doesn't know everything about square circles.) It wasn't that I "looked and looked and somehow realized something bigger". I looked and saw the delusion, s'all. Do you think the 'seeing' was an act of grace? It seems much more mundane to me.
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Post by enigma on Feb 24, 2012 18:40:58 GMT -5
Well, I finally ran out of patience and had to ban Tath and his ISP from the forum. His posts were disrupting the threads. Those people who wish to dialogue with him can use his regular email address. Here's hoping that he finds some peace of mind. Thanks for that, ZD. I'm pretty sure we're done playing in that sandbox.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 24, 2012 18:51:58 GMT -5
I was just thinking the same thing. Read my earlier post. He can no longer visit the forum. I guess I watch too much TV. It seems all he needs is another ISP? (a minor detail for his big bucks). He can appear, but he can't show he's here. The only way he can do this is to not-post. He will not be able to not-post. So, stay tuned for more fireworks. I agree that we shouldn't respond to his posts. However, not having volition, some will not be able to not-respond. I put my money on exactamente. sdp
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Post by enigma on Feb 24, 2012 18:53:17 GMT -5
My post had nothing to do with disproving 'pointers to truth'. I was simply saying that I still have no friggin clue what 'realization' is. According to Enigma's definition I have never had a realization in my entire life. I didn't think E. was defining 'realization', so much as expounding on the idea that realization isn't a mental thing. From my own practical experience, even trying to 'realize' anything, only serves to prevent one from realizing anything. Yeah, that's it. More of a talking about what it isn't. I hear lots of peeps saying realization is just thinking or knowing something or believing in falsity, or conversely, seeing realization as a woo woo experience or some knowledge gained. Just wanted to challenge those ideas so that there might be a less 'sinfull' focus. (more on target)
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Post by enigma on Feb 24, 2012 18:54:17 GMT -5
My post had nothing to do with disproving 'pointers to truth'. I was simply saying that I still have no friggin clue what 'realization' is. According to Enigma's definition I have never had a realization in my entire life. To me, E's 'definition' is showing that a realization is a subtraction of a thought, rather than the addition of an idea or concept or belief. It's a seeing that some thought was really a constructed house of cards and in that bam moment, the house collapses. A lot of times, thoughts rush back in - it can be a nanosecond later - so it can be hard to see that the moment of realization was actually a subtraction. Eggzaklee.
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Post by enigma on Feb 24, 2012 19:28:14 GMT -5
What does it mean to say Truth is self evident? Knowledge requires evidence to support it, and so no knowledge is self evident, but Truth does not refer to knowledge. Yup, good stuff, very insightful... And like someone mentioned about emptying their cups. I only had to do it nearly 1300 times in posts, before I was ready to hear this message. I had a few realizations just reading it...hehe I might have to bump myself up a notch on the Ox trail... ;D Thanks E WooHoo! A couple steps closer to that durn ox. Hehe.
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Post by enigma on Feb 24, 2012 19:39:31 GMT -5
What are you talking about? You mean you never realized that the monster in the dark closet or under your bed wasn't real, and was just your imagination. Sheeesh, what kind of kid were you? Just kidding... ;D It's called understanding, not realization. I looked into the closet and under my bed and found no monster and so I figured that there is no monster. The understanding is based on evidence and evidence alone. I evidentially proved a negative (something that E claimed is logically impossible). You're moholing that 'rule', which I put in scare quotes for a reason. Can you prove that there are no monsters?
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Post by therealfake on Feb 24, 2012 21:48:19 GMT -5
What are you talking about? You mean you never realized that the monster in the dark closet or under your bed wasn't real, and was just your imagination. Sheeesh, what kind of kid were you? Just kidding... ;D It's called understanding, not realization. I looked into the closet and under my bed and found no monster and so I figured that there is no monster. The understanding is based on evidence and evidence alone. I evidentially proved a negative (something that E claimed is logically impossible). Ahhh, so your not the realization deprived person you thought you were... It's simply a matter of terms, E says realiazation and you say understanding. Whatever the term the affect is the same, an illusion is seen through. And that's the important part.
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Post by Portto on Feb 24, 2012 21:50:59 GMT -5
What does it mean to say Truth is self evident? Knowledge requires evidence to support it, and so no knowledge is self evident, but Truth does not refer to knowledge. This self evident, non-conceptual nature applies to all genuine realizations, no matter how small, because the nature of a realization is the seeing of what is NOT so; the collapse of a belief. This realization is not an idea or a thought or conclusion, and so it is not seen as part of the temporal flow of experience as events occurring in time. As such, realization is timeless, and occurs as a flash of insight. We've all had them so it's not something woo woo. Since it is not thought, it is not the knowing of some knowledge that can be stored in memory and recalled later. As such, a realization can only be realized NOW. No matter how many times you notice it, it will never become a part of your knowledge base as something that you know. You cannot know anything. All knowledge is subject to doubt. Realization is looking at the world without thinking and seeing IT.
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