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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 8, 2016 8:47:04 GMT -5
Beware of such accounts of mystical experiences. They are interesting and exciting and wrongly give the reader something to aspire to and look forward to in their own practice. Everyone likes out of the ordinary experiences, but what he was describing is not self realization, which is very quiet and very ordinary. He clearly wasn't finished as he says so himself. Low started Zen practice in 1966 with Yasutani Roshi. The full account was 22 pages, and written at the request of Philip Kapleau, in December 1974 shortly after the occurrence, the Roshi mentioned. Kapleau, at the end (pg 306), said at this point, "one is like a puppy that has just opened its eyes on the world".
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Post by laughter on Mar 8, 2016 9:13:10 GMT -5
? Why ? 'tis a tear of the sorrow of perfection.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 8, 2016 9:17:20 GMT -5
? Why ? 'tis a tear of the sorrow of perfection. 'K
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Post by laughter on Mar 8, 2016 9:25:23 GMT -5
? Why ? The wall-facing tradition probably derived from the story of Bodhidharma who reportedly meditated while facing a wall for seven years. It may also be pursued as a way to remove any peripheral distractions, such as noticing other peoples' movements, etc. It's one of those old traditions that should probably be thrown out the window, but........to each his/her own. Well, I perceive a pattern that just might be the heart talk of an isolated internet dude who's never set foot even near a Zendo .. or perhaps it might be the dialog circling back to Low's insight/devotion dichotomy, and to see what I'm getting at, just consider the differences you describe between the two kinds of retreats. Another fun fact from wiki: "In Soto Zen, the kyōsaku is always administered at the request of the meditator, by way of bowing one's head and putting the palms together in gassho, and then exposing each shoulder to be struck in turn. In Rinzai Zen, the stick is requested in the same manner, but may also be used at the discretion of the Ino, the one in charge of the meditation hall." Maybe some peeps need to find what they're looking for from other peeps. Maybe some others need to look elsewhere .. and I'd hazard the thought that this isn't even really a constant for any one given human being during the course of their life.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 8, 2016 10:05:10 GMT -5
The wall-facing tradition probably derived from the story of Bodhidharma who reportedly meditated while facing a wall for seven years. It may also be pursued as a way to remove any peripheral distractions, such as noticing other peoples' movements, etc. It's one of those old traditions that should probably be thrown out the window, but........to each his/her own. Well, I perceive a pattern that just might be the heart talk of an isolated internet dude who's never set foot even near a Zendo .. or perhaps it might be the dialog circling back to Low's insight/devotion dichotomy, and to see what I'm getting at, just consider the differences you describe between the two kinds of retreats. Another fun fact from wiki: "In Soto Zen, the kyōsaku is always administered at the request of the meditator, by way of bowing one's head and putting the palms together in gassho, and then exposing each shoulder to be struck in turn. In Rinzai Zen, the stick is requested in the same manner, but may also be used at the discretion of the Ino, the one in charge of the meditation hall." Maybe some peeps need to find what they're looking for from other peeps. Maybe some others need to look elsewhere .. and I'd hazard the thought that this isn't even really a constant for any one given human being during the course of their life. Many Zen traditions have stopped using the kyosaku completely. This tradition grew out of the rather hard-nosed militaristic approach employed in oriental monasteries. In America it was used as a way to wake someone up who was falling asleep or bring back alertness to a practitioner who realized s/he was fading out and wanted a slap on the back. Some wielders of the stick used just enough force to snap someone back to wakefulness whereas others took a more sadistic pleasure in striking people rather painfully for any slight movement or sign of nodding off. I suspect that this tradition will die out completely within another decade or so. Americans are not generally sympathetic to what might be interpreted as corporeal punishment of any kind, and I've heard many people tell Zendo leaders that if they are touched with the stick, they will leave.
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Post by laughter on Mar 8, 2016 10:30:09 GMT -5
Well, I perceive a pattern that just might be the heart talk of an isolated internet dude who's never set foot even near a Zendo .. or perhaps it might be the dialog circling back to Low's insight/devotion dichotomy, and to see what I'm getting at, just consider the differences you describe between the two kinds of retreats. Another fun fact from wiki: "In Soto Zen, the kyōsaku is always administered at the request of the meditator, by way of bowing one's head and putting the palms together in gassho, and then exposing each shoulder to be struck in turn. In Rinzai Zen, the stick is requested in the same manner, but may also be used at the discretion of the Ino, the one in charge of the meditation hall." Maybe some peeps need to find what they're looking for from other peeps. Maybe some others need to look elsewhere .. and I'd hazard the thought that this isn't even really a constant for any one given human being during the course of their life. Many Zen traditions have stopped using the kyosaku completely. This tradition grew out of the rather hard-nosed militaristic approach employed in oriental monasteries. In America it was used as a way to wake someone up who was falling asleep or bring back alertness to a practitioner who realized s/he was fading out and wanted a slap on the back. Some wielders of the stick used just enough force to snap someone back to wakefulness whereas others took a more sadistic pleasure in striking people rather painfully for any slight movement or sign of nodding off. I suspect that this tradition will die out completely within another decade or so. Americans are not generally sympathetic to what might be interpreted as corporeal punishment of any kind, and I've heard many people tell Zendo leaders that if they are touched with the stick, they will leave. But if in the Soto Zendo it's always requested, why would they even need to say that?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 8, 2016 10:33:34 GMT -5
Many Zen traditions have stopped using the kyosaku completely. This tradition grew out of the rather hard-nosed militaristic approach employed in oriental monasteries. In America it was used as a way to wake someone up who was falling asleep or bring back alertness to a practitioner who realized s/he was fading out and wanted a slap on the back. Some wielders of the stick used just enough force to snap someone back to wakefulness whereas others took a more sadistic pleasure in striking people rather painfully for any slight movement or sign of nodding off. I suspect that this tradition will die out completely within another decade or so. Americans are not generally sympathetic to what might be interpreted as corporeal punishment of any kind, and I've heard many people tell Zendo leaders that if they are touched with the stick, they will leave. But if in the Soto Zendo it's always requested, why would they even need to say that? This goes back to your Wiki quote post (two alternative uses).
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 8, 2016 10:39:02 GMT -5
Well, I perceive a pattern that just might be the heart talk of an isolated internet dude who's never set foot even near a Zendo .. or perhaps it might be the dialog circling back to Low's insight/devotion dichotomy, and to see what I'm getting at, just consider the differences you describe between the two kinds of retreats. Another fun fact from wiki: "In Soto Zen, the kyōsaku is always administered at the request of the meditator, by way of bowing one's head and putting the palms together in gassho, and then exposing each shoulder to be struck in turn. In Rinzai Zen, the stick is requested in the same manner, but may also be used at the discretion of the Ino, the one in charge of the meditation hall."Maybe some peeps need to find what they're looking for from other peeps. Maybe some others need to look elsewhere .. and I'd hazard the thought that this isn't even really a constant for any one given human being during the course of their life. Many Zen traditions have stopped using the kyosaku completely. This tradition grew out of the rather hard-nosed militaristic approach employed in oriental monasteries. In America it was used as a way to wake someone up who was falling asleep or bring back alertness to a practitioner who realized s/he was fading out and wanted a slap on the back. Some wielders of the stick used just enough force to snap someone back to wakefulness whereas others took a more sadistic pleasure in striking people rather painfully for any slight movement or sign of nodding off. I suspect that this tradition will die out completely within another decade or so. Americans are not generally sympathetic to what might be interpreted as corporeal punishment of any kind, and I've heard many people tell Zendo leaders that if they are touched with the stick, they will leave.
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Post by laughter on Mar 8, 2016 11:39:52 GMT -5
But if in the Soto Zendo it's always requested, why would they even need to say that? This goes back to your Wiki quote post (two alternative uses). Right, you got that (according to the wiki) Soto Zendo's use it one way, Rinzai the other?
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Post by zendancer on Mar 8, 2016 12:15:42 GMT -5
Many Zen traditions have stopped using the kyosaku completely. This tradition grew out of the rather hard-nosed militaristic approach employed in oriental monasteries. In America it was used as a way to wake someone up who was falling asleep or bring back alertness to a practitioner who realized s/he was fading out and wanted a slap on the back. Some wielders of the stick used just enough force to snap someone back to wakefulness whereas others took a more sadistic pleasure in striking people rather painfully for any slight movement or sign of nodding off. I suspect that this tradition will die out completely within another decade or so. Americans are not generally sympathetic to what might be interpreted as corporeal punishment of any kind, and I've heard many people tell Zendo leaders that if they are touched with the stick, they will leave. But if in the Soto Zendo it's always requested, why would they even need to say that? The original tradition was for the person (I've forgotten the title) with the stick to walk behind the practitioners and strike people (sometimes quite forcibly) whenever movement or nodding off was detected. This was sudden, unexpected, and sometimes painful. In America the tradition changed in most zendos, and people began to request getting a modest whack to wake them up. Today, it varies from group to group, but because some people violently object to getting struck for any reason, they make their thoughts known beforehand. In some zendos everyone gets struck sequentially as part of a slightly different tradition. I remember one retreat where a Zen Master told everyone that he was going to give us all a whack. Each person bowed, in turn, and was zapped by the guy. We were all expecting the sort of light whack that was common, and we were totally surprised when the guy really laid it on with a vengeance (or out of ignorance). I was struck particularly hard, and it totally pissed me off where prior to that time I hadn't cared much about it one way or the other.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 8, 2016 12:20:44 GMT -5
FWIW, there's even a variation between how the Korean Rinzai tradition and the Japanese Rinzai tradition use the stick, and I suspect that the same thing is true of the Soto traditions. Every group that uses the stick uses it differently, and some groups have totally quit using the stick at all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2016 13:05:25 GMT -5
FWIW, there's even a variation between how the Korean Rinzai tradition and the Japanese Rinzai tradition use the stick, and I suspect that the same thing is true of the Soto traditions. Every group that uses the stick uses it differently, and some groups have totally quit using the stick at all. not this group, obviously
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Post by laughter on Mar 8, 2016 13:33:31 GMT -5
FWIW, there's even a variation between how the Korean Rinzai tradition and the Japanese Rinzai tradition use the stick, and I suspect that the same thing is true of the Soto traditions. Every group that uses the stick uses it differently, and some groups have totally quit using the stick at all. Thanks for the explanations and accounts of experiences man. Guess I just gotta' get out more!
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 8, 2016 16:38:03 GMT -5
FWIW, there's even a variation between how the Korean Rinzai tradition and the Japanese Rinzai tradition use the stick, and I suspect that the same thing is true of the Soto traditions. Every group that uses the stick uses it differently, and some groups have totally quit using the stick at all. not this group, obviously
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Post by laughter on Mar 9, 2016 5:41:09 GMT -5
FWIW, there's even a variation between how the Korean Rinzai tradition and the Japanese Rinzai tradition use the stick, and I suspect that the same thing is true of the Soto traditions. Every group that uses the stick uses it differently, and some groups have totally quit using the stick at all. not this group, obviously What'll happen when I'm sitting out on a bench I favor and meditating is a passing mosquito or bee buzzes my ear, and if I'm in deep enough it'll just come and go, sort of fade to black. But if my mind has wandered, and I'm lost in thought, it has the effect of snapping me out of that and getting me present. So this idea of someone tapping you on the shoulder in a meditation hall obviously has some real practical value. Maybe they could put an ice cube on the back of the neck or something so peeps wouldn't associate the idea of abuse with it. ... but Zen has it's traditions and rituals, and, from the outside looking in, it seems to me there's a funny mind-paradox in that, the history involved in the culture generally, and it's importance.
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