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Post by laughter on Sept 14, 2014 5:19:12 GMT -5
I can only say that "a shallow Samadhi" still has a few thoughts bubbling up, and awareness is sort of floating around amidst the bubbles. When thoughts totally cease, the samadhi usually goes deep. It feels as if awareness sinks straight down to the bottom of some deep ocean trench, and then lies there on the ocean floor, where it remains, unmoving. It is very much like getting onto a high speed elevator dropping toward the center of the earth. There is a definite and distinct sensation of sinking downward or within, but other than the feeling that everything is coalescing into oneness, I can't remember any clear black and white point beyond which a shallow Samadhi suddenly turns into a deep one. Needless to say, perhaps, Samadhi is a difficult subject to write about or convey anything very specific. Sekida probably does as good a job as anyone. I hopped on just for a second and came across this and man it was like a smack to the face. There was this one time on a trip across the country with my family where I was slowing my breathing with my eyes shut to the point where I could feel my heart beat when suddenly it felt like I fell through the floor. It literally felt like disconnecting from the body and I remember convincing myself "Bring it back.... yeah... just go right back to your body... it's cool--just bring it back." It was kind of scary at the time. Since then I've repeatedly gotten to the point right before the drop, but it doesn't happen now. I get too focused on it happening to me and lose focus. Pretty wild stuff. Nice to hear from you mamza. Cool report.
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Post by mamza on Sept 14, 2014 12:48:26 GMT -5
*Salute* Recently I started trying to 'drop' again, but I imagine it will be relatively futile, if not fun and weird along the way.
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Post by laughter on Sept 14, 2014 15:00:48 GMT -5
*Salute* Recently I started trying to 'drop' again, but I imagine it will be relatively futile, if not fun and weird along the way. (** breaths in, breaths out **)
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Post by mamza on Sept 14, 2014 21:01:54 GMT -5
I'm meditating lying down in bed with my eyes shut and the lights off. My focus is my breath. Even though I maintain focus on the breath for small periods of time (5-10min with no mental words, images, associations, identities... just breath), the inevitable mental bubbles come up. Suddenly I'm seeing random scenes and images. I consider this a temporary distraction, but my focus is still on the breath while these images appear. What's up with that?
And why is it that no matter how long I seem to focus on my breath for, there is no point where I am more or less likely to have these images? Doing this is certainly causing some sort of physical/mental phenomenon--fuzziness, 'distance' (mentally), 1040% calmness, and that sinking feeling (but only to a point, not the falling through I mentioned previously). But no matter how much I do it the effects don't seem to change.
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Post by silver on Sept 14, 2014 21:14:39 GMT -5
I'm meditating lying down in bed with my eyes shut and the lights off. My focus is my breath. Even though I maintain focus on the breath for small periods of time (5-10min with no mental words, images, associations, identities... just breath), the inevitable mental bubbles come up. Suddenly I'm seeing random scenes and images. I consider this a temporary distraction, but my focus is still on the breath while these images appear. What's up with that? And why is it that no matter how long I seem to focus on my breath for, there is no point where I am more or less likely to have these images? Doing this is certainly causing some sort of physical/mental phenomenon--fuzziness, 'distance' (mentally), 1040% calmness, and that sinking feeling (but only to a point, not the falling through I mentioned previously). But no matter how much I do it the effects don't seem to change. Um, what is it you're expecting in place of when the 'inevitable mental bubbles' arise? Are you anticipating 'no thoughts' and believe that to be an improvement or what? I'm just curious, is all.
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Post by mamza on Sept 15, 2014 22:28:42 GMT -5
I don't know if I expect anything so much as hope to experience the dropping-off sensation again. I have never experienced anything at any other point in my life similar to it, and it only lasted maybe 15 seconds. I don't imagine I WILL ever experience it again, but doing what I do calms me considerably and removes a lot of mental shenanigans so I'm not overly concerned.
What I'm curious about is what caused the shift. The movement from sitting in a car bundled up with a pillow breathing shallowly to wham-bam-fell-through-the-floor-and-my-body's-gone.
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Post by laughter on Sept 15, 2014 22:38:56 GMT -5
I'm meditating lying down in bed with my eyes shut and the lights off. My focus is my breath. Even though I maintain focus on the breath for small periods of time (5-10min with no mental words, images, associations, identities... just breath), the inevitable mental bubbles come up. Suddenly I'm seeing random scenes and images. I consider this a temporary distraction, but my focus is still on the breath while these images appear. What's up with that? And why is it that no matter how long I seem to focus on my breath for, there is no point where I am more or less likely to have these images? Doing this is certainly causing some sort of physical/mental phenomenon--fuzziness, 'distance' (mentally), 1040% calmness, and that sinking feeling (but only to a point, not the falling through I mentioned previously). But no matter how much I do it the effects don't seem to change. There are a few techniques I use for wandering thoughts while sitting. Interested?
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Post by mamza on Sept 16, 2014 1:18:35 GMT -5
Sure. Whatcha got?
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Post by laughter on Sept 16, 2014 11:48:27 GMT -5
I can get into these long periods sitting with eyes closed where there's definitely no thinking going on, just what I'd described as a really wide open and light awareness with what seems like hyper heightened senses. Other times, thinking will fire up, essentially unnoticed, until it is. Now to get into those long gaps, when the loop of thinking is noticed, it's important just to let it go, without any curiosity or "ooops!" or frustration at not getting to a gap. As to not getting hooked in the first place, I use a method of first deliberately quieting the mind, and then sit in alertness for the first thought. The technique is to try to notice the initial arising of the next thought. There's a lead up in the sitting that can put the mind into a state where it's more likely to gap than hook. What I'll sometimes do in that lead up is a visualization with the mind as a metaphor. I use the metaphor of a mousehole, but likely the visualization that's gonna work best for every individual varies between them. I imagine a scene in which there is a mousehole and a series of events leading up to watching the mousehole waiting for the first mouse (thought) to emerge. It's the focusing on the visualization that places attention on attention (thanks Mr. Frog!), and it's pretty easy to sense a sort of scale of intensity of the alertness involved as it's happening. IOW, in engaging in such focus, the differential between a noisy and quiet mind is self-evident. In noticing the stirrings of the mind that form the basis for the next thought, the same idea applies to witnessing that as applies to noticing a full-on loop of mind chatter. What happens is that attention and interest start to entangle around some fragment of an idea. If the meaning of that idea isn't engaged, but instead, the thought is just allowed to hang there with no energy applied to it, it will dissipate even more quickly than it appeared. What happens is that if this alertness can be maintained for even a few minutes, it sort of feeds back into itself. As the field of awareness empties out, attention becomes more and more focused on a sort of expansive blankness, and there's nowhere for interest to hook itself onto. The gaps become longer and longer and deeper and deeper. What I've found from playing around with the Zen breathing techniques is that integrating the mind with the body can have the same sort of effect as the visualization, although the experience of it is very very different.
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Post by mamza on Sept 17, 2014 16:39:10 GMT -5
I appreciate you typing all that up, but most of that I already do or have done. I used to use a mental image of light beaming down through my head->feet->floor->center of earth, then going the opposite direction. At this point I can get the same effect just breathing regularly in half a second. The longer I do it the more it deepens/intensifies, but there's a sort of plateau that's reached.
Getting distracted doesn't bother me at all. I expect it. I can shut any thought down immediately... but after doing what we'll just call meditation for long enough in the way I do it, the closer I get to sleep the more frequently thoughts come up (dreaming, derp). And that's all good and fine. I've just passed the plateau before and I want to again.
I think the issue is that I go into meditation relatively empty or looking to relax, and that emptiness is maintained until the shift beyond said imaginary plateau is approaching. Then my mind gets hooked and thinks "Almost there!" (in a nonverbal yet clearly excited for myself way) and then it fades or progresses no further because the focus has shifted to >me< reaching past that plateau. Pretty sure I just gotta keep at it and keep clear.
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Post by laughter on Sept 17, 2014 21:01:12 GMT -5
I appreciate you typing all that up, but most of that I already do or have done. I used to use a mental image of light beaming down through my head->feet->floor->center of earth, then going the opposite direction. At this point I can get the same effect just breathing regularly in half a second. The longer I do it the more it deepens/intensifies, but there's a sort of plateau that's reached. Getting distracted doesn't bother me at all. I expect it. I can shut any thought down immediately... but after doing what we'll just call meditation for long enough in the way I do it, the closer I get to sleep the more frequently thoughts come up (dreaming, derp). And that's all good and fine. I've just passed the plateau before and I want to again. I think the issue is that I go into meditation relatively empty or looking to relax, and that emptiness is maintained until the shift beyond said imaginary plateau is approaching. Then my mind gets hooked and thinks "Almost there!" (in a nonverbal yet clearly excited for myself way) and then it fades or progresses no further because the focus has shifted to >me< reaching past that plateau. Pretty sure I just gotta keep at it and keep clear. I know what you mean by that plateau for sure. Checked tonight for that "elevator down" everyone's been mentioning ... oh yeah .. that. -- wasn't as intense or deep as you and the others have described, but it's definitely a non-physical physical sensation. The practice thoughts -- "oh, is this it??" -- are a sort of self-reinforcing inevitability, because in attending attention, it is the interest that first hooks attention in the nascent proto-thought, and, why wouldn't you be meditating if there's not some interest there? I've found that those tend to only come up when I'm messing around with a new practice technique though, and once it becomes routine ... well ... the gaps definitely lengthen and deepen if one EXPECTS NOTHING. re: the thanks -- no need to feel in the least awkward, I'll admit to gaining something from expressing that in an ongoing of mind informing practice and vice-versa.
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 17, 2014 21:01:34 GMT -5
I appreciate you typing all that up, but most of that I already do or have done. I used to use a mental image of light beaming down through my head->feet->floor->center of earth, then going the opposite direction. At this point I can get the same effect just breathing regularly in half a second. The longer I do it the more it deepens/intensifies, but there's a sort of plateau that's reached. Getting distracted doesn't bother me at all. I expect it. I can shut any thought down immediately... but after doing what we'll just call meditation for long enough in the way I do it, the closer I get to sleep the more frequently thoughts come up (dreaming, derp). And that's all good and fine. I've just passed the plateau before and I want to again. I think the issue is that I go into meditation relatively empty or looking to relax, and that emptiness is maintained until the shift beyond said imaginary plateau is approaching. Then my mind gets hooked and thinks "Almost there!" (in a nonverbal yet clearly excited for myself way) and then it fades or progresses no further because the focus has shifted to >me< reaching past that plateau. Pretty sure I just gotta keep at it and keep clear. What's really interesting is amount of time spent in clarity but not realized as such.. when the information/experiences are not stored in the conventional mental filing cabinet and cross-referenced, many people have difficulty recognizing a naturally holistic interaction with the existence we are experiencing.. in other words i see lots of people hesitating and second-guessing their most coherently natural interactions with Life as it happens, while trying to fit all the cross-referenced information into a peer-reviewed and approved response to what has already happened..
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Post by mamza on Sept 19, 2014 13:39:56 GMT -5
I legitimately have no idea what you're telling me, Tzu. Sounds like:
Shit's not happening the way we're used to it happening, so we second guess the legit happening of the things and the whosawhatsits because we don't recognize the thingamajigs for what they are. Then we flopablopadop around looking in the usual shitonashingles to see what the thingamajigs resemble, 'cause their ain't no way to describe the full-heart beam-slash of the master sword without just doin' it to it.
I'm 100% positive my version is clearer. *cough*
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2014 15:16:56 GMT -5
I legitimately have no idea what you're telling me, Tzu. Sounds like: nuts's not happening the way we're used to it happening, so we second guess the legit happening of the things and the whosawhatsits because we don't recognize the thingamajigs for what they are. Then we flopablopadop around looking in the usual nutsonashingles to see what the thingamajigs resemble, 'cause their ain't no way to describe the full-heart beam-slash of the master sword without just doin' it to it. I'm 100% positive my version is clearer. *cough* all you need to do now is repeat the same thing about four thousand more times...
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Post by zendancer on Sept 19, 2014 15:20:32 GMT -5
I appreciate you typing all that up, but most of that I already do or have done. I used to use a mental image of light beaming down through my head->feet->floor->center of earth, then going the opposite direction. At this point I can get the same effect just breathing regularly in half a second. The longer I do it the more it deepens/intensifies, but there's a sort of plateau that's reached. Getting distracted doesn't bother me at all. I expect it. I can shut any thought down immediately... but after doing what we'll just call meditation for long enough in the way I do it, the closer I get to sleep the more frequently thoughts come up (dreaming, derp). And that's all good and fine. I've just passed the plateau before and I want to again. I think the issue is that I go into meditation relatively empty or looking to relax, and that emptiness is maintained until the shift beyond said imaginary plateau is approaching. Then my mind gets hooked and thinks "Almost there!" (in a nonverbal yet clearly excited for myself way) and then it fades or progresses no further because the focus has shifted to >me< reaching past that plateau. Pretty sure I just gotta keep at it and keep clear. Yes. The bottom falling out of the mind often happens to people who know nothing about formal meditation. Suzanne Segal begins her book, "Collision with the Infinite" like this: "I used to meditate on my name. As a child of seven or eight I would sit cross-legged , eyes closed, on a couch in my parent's living room and say my name over and over to myself. The name would reverberate in my mind with each repetition, starting off solid and strong. My name, who I was. Then fainter, repeating, repeating, repeating, until a threshold was crossed and the identity as that name broke, like a ship suddenly released from its mooring to float untethered on the ocean waves. Vastness appeared. The name became a word only, a collection of sounds pulsing in the vast emptiness. There was no person to whom that name referred, no identity as that name. No one. Then fear would arise, my heart would pound hard in my ears, and I would struggle for air, my lungs squeezed in fear's iron grip. I would stop, get up from the couch, walk around, force myself back from the vastness, and into the identity of that name. It was too frightening to bear for one so young. But later that day I would return to the couch, sit again, start the name. I will never know what compelled me to do this practice or how the idea of it ever arose.......etc" Gangaji has reported something similar, and her parents, when told about it, took her to a doctor and put her on some kind of medication. I have a friend, who at the age of about seven, was sitting on a toilet and had the thought, "The toilet holds me up, but what holds up the toilet? He then thought, "The floor holds up the toilet, but what holds up the floor? He then thought, "The earth holds up the floor, but what holds up the earth?" With this final thought, his mind crossed some sort of threshold (because he could not conceive of what held up the earth), and this made him feel as if he was about to plummet into something so deep and vast that it scared him to death. Many meditative practices can lead to the bottom falling out of the mind, or the falling into a state of absolute Samadhi in which selfhood and all other content disappears. The key seems to be intensity of focus. Initially, thoughts may arise, such as, "Oh, I think I'm falling into Samadhi (or crossing a threshold of some kind)," but if these kinds of thoughts are ignored and attention keeps shifting back to the object or process of contemplation, the deepening and disappearance of self-referentiality will eventually continue. I first encountered the vastness when I was in the fourth grade. I had a feverish dream one night in which I felt like I was a microscopic speck suspended in a vast void through which massive worlds were moving. It was quite frightening, and the dream reoccurred several times during the following months. The next time I encountered the vastness was during an initial CC experience, and it, too, was quite frightening. I looked at a construction superintendent on a project and could not see the center part of his body. A hole about four feet in diameter had opened up, and it felt as if everything in my visual field were about to disappear in the same way as the center of the guy's body. I had to make a strong mental effort to bring the middle part of his body back into focus (much like the experiment commonly described in psychology books about how to watch the mind fill in the void where the retina's blind spots are located), and I felt as if I were on the very edge of falling into something so vast that I would disappear completely and perhaps never return. Scared, I made an excuse, rushed out of the house, got into my car, and a few moments later remembered who I was. Exploring consciousness, and experimenting with consciousness, can involve some very strange phenomena.
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