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Post by lolly on Jan 10, 2012 5:29:18 GMT -5
This 'teachers' forum is one where all answers are known, so it's time for me to come and say, no answers.
Since the forum has degenerated into a gossip thread about enigma and an endorsement of Andrews recent creation obsession, I'm inclined to draw attention toward the essence of spirtitual life.
I spent a lot of time at a real life ashram, serving the students and going on retreat, so I know well how clandestine ashrams are, and why they degenerate to tit for tats (tit being my personal preferance) such as discussions about personages.
I already know the standard lines like 'all practices have to dropped eventually' and the other things people say to put themselves at the very pinacle above and beyond everyone and everything else, so don't bother with that mish now... just go back to your own particular inquiry process without furthur consideration to its refinement.
This environment of the cyber ashram is a cave where stale ideas can be repetitively expressed, sames as real world ashrams, while the refinement of the inquiry process goes ignored. Ya, remember refinement.
The futility now with which I speak lies in the knowing of answers, as ones read the title and already have ideas churning, already formulating their idea which they have also expressed before, and already poised with the answer they know...
Would it be possible for these collective minds to regain their composure, recall their purpose, muster some sincerity and forgo every thing they think they know and become truely responsive for the sake of making the most subtle refinements to understandings of the inquiry process?
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Post by andrew on Jan 10, 2012 5:41:04 GMT -5
I really think we might know each other from another forum. I go by the same name on the other forum so I guess you would know more certainly than me whether we have met.
Personally, I tend to endorse a simple meditation practice.
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Post by sherry on Jan 10, 2012 5:51:58 GMT -5
AMEN lolly
some fresh air !
thank you
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Post by relinquish on Jan 10, 2012 6:32:37 GMT -5
You might like to go back through my posts. I've never wavered or faultered. I'm here to share my passion for existence. That's all :-)
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Post by quinn on Jan 10, 2012 7:01:50 GMT -5
You might like to go back through my posts. I've never wavered or faultered. I'm here to share my passion for existence. That's all :-) Not particularly directing this at you, stillness, since I don't know you at all....but I think lolly's point is that we need to be doing a lot more wavering and faltering.
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Post by relinquish on Jan 10, 2012 9:21:50 GMT -5
You might like to go back through my posts. I've never wavered or faultered. I'm here to share my passion for existence. That's all :-) Not particularly directing this at you, stillness, since I don't know you at all....but I think lolly's point is that we need to be doing a lot more wavering and faltering. Your quite right, Quinn. That IS Lolly's point, and a good one it is. As long as we don't go silly though, right?
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Post by guiyom on Jan 10, 2012 9:50:36 GMT -5
Everything is a meditation be centered and focus your attention on what you are doing.
Dont take this path to seriously. It doesnt help.
As for teacher, the best is History.
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Post by silence on Jan 10, 2012 20:06:46 GMT -5
Huh?
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Post by Beingist on Jan 10, 2012 20:16:46 GMT -5
My initial response, exactly. (Though a fist bump to Guiyom for the comment on History
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Post by quinn on Jan 10, 2012 20:38:46 GMT -5
Would it be possible for these collective minds to regain their composure, recall their purpose, muster some sincerity and forgo every thing they think they know and become truely responsive for the sake of making the most subtle refinements to understandings of the inquiry process? I have a question for you, lolly. Or anyone else. It's about this "refinement" of the inquiry process. I've done a lot of meditation. There was a point - maybe about 6 months ago - where an image came to me of pruning a long long bush and glancing over to where I had begun my pruning to see that the bush was growing back. That was pretty much how I felt about inquiry at that point. Insights had come, attachments had fallen away and then.......new attachments formed, new confusions appeared. It felt like an endless, pointless task. I have since stopped a formal meditation - I just sit back every once in awhile, some days a lot, some days not at all, and breath in some stillness when I feel I 'need' it. (I also go to two meditation sessions/week because a friend and I started offering it and a bunch of people count on us running it. Kind of ironic.) I know inquiry is important - I don't want to slide back into the whole mind-made mess I was in before because I'm ignoring something key. But I guess I don't know where to go from here. Maybe I don't know the refinements? Any insights would be appreciated.
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Post by tathagata on Jan 10, 2012 21:32:53 GMT -5
Would it be possible for these collective minds to regain their composure, recall their purpose, muster some sincerity and forgo every thing they think they know and become truely responsive for the sake of making the most subtle refinements to understandings of the inquiry process? I I have a question for you, lolly. Or anyone else. It's about this "refinement" of the inquiry process. I've done a lot of meditation. There was a point - maybe about 6 months ago - where an image came to me of pruning a long long bush and glancing over to where I had begun my pruning to see that the bush was growing back. That was pretty much how I felt about inquiry at that point. Insights had come, attachments had fallen away and then.......new attachments formed, new confusions appeared. It felt like an endless, pointless task. I have since stopped a formal meditation - I just sit back every once in awhile, some days a lot, some days not at all, and breath in some stillness when I feel I 'need' it. (I also go to two meditation sessions/week because a friend and I started offering it and a bunch of people count on us running it. Kind of ironic.) I know inquiry is important - I don't want to slide back into the whole mind-made mess I was in before because I'm ignoring something key. But I guess I don't know where to go from here. Maybe I don't know the refinements? Any insights would be appreciated. Hi Quinn I had a similar conversation with Freejoy today about modes of inquiry. There is a kind of inquiry wherein we look at the Cuase of our current thoughts, beliefs, emotions, actions, etc. And there is a kind of inquiry where we look at the physics of the thoughts and actions etc. Looking at the root Cuase is just psyco analysis really, it's mind looking at mind and can be endless in the way you described in the bush pruning, the Wackamole game from Chucky Cheese is another way of looking at it...the second kind of inquiry is not mind looking at mind, or the causation chain that led to your current thoughts beliefs and actions, its closer to looking at the physics of your thoughts appearing, sustaining, and falling away, which will uncover true nature, instead of just being more minding happening. The following is the post I wrote for Freejoy when he asked what looking at the physics of thoughts meant. "As far as the physics of moods and thoughts....let's say a plant is growing in the field....we can say that the Cuase of the plant growing is that someone planted a seed in that location, and then we can keep looking deeper at the Cuase of the farmer to plant the seed etc....but these are just cuases....with moods and thoughts you can look at the beliefs and other thoughts that led to, or cuases this one, and there are some benefits, but it's all mind working in mind, mind looking at where it has been, a kind of psyco therapy. I don't recommend this except in passing, the core practice should not be to look for the Cuase, but the how, becuase this uncovers true nature, instead of just the ultimately meaningless and continuolly changing why's....for example, instead of looking at the why of why the plant is growing in the field, I.e. becuase the farmer planted it there to grow a crop and sell on the market etc....instead look at the physics....the way the seed germinates, the way the plant gets nutrients from the soil and the sun and sustains itself, how it passes away and loses life and becomes fertilizer for the next crop etc. Look closely at the physics of the mood or thought or emotion arising, look closely at what field in rises from, how it sustains itself, and how it passes away. Do all this from a place of simple silent still awareness that is alert and attentive. A good method if it is available to you is to use a closet in your house....when the house is quiet, go into the closet and put towels covering the gaps in the doors so no light whatsoever can get in, sit in an upright alert posture, with the eyes neither too open or closed, and in nearly complete silence and total and complete blackness, sink alertly into yourself so you are observing from a silent still center, and watch closely at that millisecond when a thought or mood or mental image or emotion arises, then watch attentively as it sustains along, and finally watch closely in that millisecond as it passes away.... This is watching the physics... See how the thought or image arises, where it arises from, where it passes away to, how it passes away. This is looking at the physics, by and by you will get more sensitive at it...do it as a passing thing from time to time, becuase for now it will be hard, until you are more confidently able to center yourself in silent awareness, which we are working on." There are other meditation methods to do the same thing. Instead of trying to unravel the chain of causation, which is a never ending dream....try to unlock the primordial nature of minding by observing it closely from still silent awareness...the more your observe from still silent awareness the more sensitive you will become to what's happening, what seems like a fleeting thing that is impossible to observe will seem like its slowing down in time, something too subtle and small and too fast to catch will seem like its a million miles wide and moving at a glacier pace with some observation and practice
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Post by onehandclapping on Jan 10, 2012 21:40:23 GMT -5
This 'teachers' forum is one where all answers are known, so it's time for me to come and say, no answers. Since the forum has degenerated into a gossip thread about enigma and an endorsement of Andrews recent creation obsession, I'm inclined to draw attention toward the essence of spirtitual life. I spent a lot of time at a real life ashram, serving the students and going on retreat, so I know well how clandestine ashrams are, and why they degenerate to tit for tats (tit being my personal preferance) such as discussions about personages. I already know the standard lines like 'all practices have to dropped eventually' and the other things people say to put themselves at the very pinacle above and beyond everyone and everything else, so don't bother with that mish now... just go back to your own particular inquiry process without furthur consideration to its refinement. This environment of the cyber ashram is a cave where stale ideas can be repetitively expressed, sames as real world ashrams, while the refinement of the inquiry process goes ignored. Ya, remember refinement. The futility now with which I speak lies in the knowing of answers, as ones read the title and already have ideas churning, already formulating their idea which they have also expressed before, and already poised with the answer they know... Would it be possible for these collective minds to regain their composure, recall their purpose, muster some sincerity and forgo every thing they think they know and become truely responsive for the sake of making the most subtle refinements to understandings of the inquiry process? Sounds like you are trying to get something from us and yet know we have nothing to give ya. Is there really a way to become more responsive?? How do we go about doing that in your mind Lolly??
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Post by enigma on Jan 10, 2012 22:17:29 GMT -5
This 'teachers' forum is one where all answers are known, so it's time for me to come and say, no answers. Since the forum has degenerated into a gossip thread about enigma and an endorsement of Andrews recent creation obsession, I'm inclined to draw attention toward the essence of spirtitual life. I spent a lot of time at a real life ashram, serving the students and going on retreat, so I know well how clandestine ashrams are, and why they degenerate to tit for tats (tit being my personal preferance) such as discussions about personages. I already know the standard lines like 'all practices have to dropped eventually' and the other things people say to put themselves at the very pinacle above and beyond everyone and everything else, so don't bother with that mish now... just go back to your own particular inquiry process without furthur consideration to its refinement. This environment of the cyber ashram is a cave where stale ideas can be repetitively expressed, sames as real world ashrams, while the refinement of the inquiry process goes ignored. Ya, remember refinement. The futility now with which I speak lies in the knowing of answers, as ones read the title and already have ideas churning, already formulating their idea which they have also expressed before, and already poised with the answer they know... Would it be possible for these collective minds to regain their composure, recall their purpose, muster some sincerity and forgo every thing they think they know and become truely responsive for the sake of making the most subtle refinements to understandings of the inquiry process? Sounds like you are trying to get something from us and yet know we have nothing to give ya. Is there really a way to become more responsive?? How do we go about doing that in your mind Lolly?? I could be wrong, but it sounds like Lolly doesn't want anything from us or an offering of a taste of that would have been appropriate, just to get the ball rolling. It looks like he wants us to shape up and fly right. Thing is, I basically agree with that sentiment, but I'm getting a bit cynical in my old age and I know that what spiritual peeps do is spin without ever really going anywhere. They spin whatever stories they're living out, and they like those stories or they would trade them in for new ones. There are a million stories in the naked city, and this is one of them. They're all wrong.
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Post by angela on Jan 10, 2012 22:26:23 GMT -5
oh lolly. thanks hon. what a lovely post. i like the line in verses on the faith mind..... about not seeking truth, but instead ceasing to cherish opinions....
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Post by quinn on Jan 11, 2012 5:40:06 GMT -5
"Thing is, I basically agree with that sentiment, but I'm getting a bit cynical in my old age and I know that what spiritual peeps do is spin without ever really going anywhere." Enigma, this is what I see all around me with the meditation group (including myself) and exactly what I don't want to keep doing. But I also don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Seems like giving up all practices and just living the life I find myself in (Fox news blaring in the house, drama drama everywhere - you get the picture) is not the answer either. Didn't work out so well before I stumbled onto these teachings. Tathagata - thank you. Yes, at first meditation did involve a lot of uprooting of psychological stuff. Maybe you're right, that was the whack-a-mole thing. I've watched the 'physics' of thought for years. I get it. I know, deep down, the ephemeral nature of thoughts and have seen where I believed them. The magic trick has been exposed and the magician has no more credibility. Well, meditation meets today. Maybe I'll inquire what it is I'm actually asking here.
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