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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2014 12:42:39 GMT -5
Word lawyering aside; (Laughter & E) Where did you see that in this thread?
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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2014 12:48:59 GMT -5
"Meditation" is one of those words that can mean different things to different people. According to different dictionaries it can mean contemplation, reflection, deep thought, prolonged thought, intention, planning, etc. Most people associate the word with sitting in a lotus position pursuing some form of silent contemplation. Buddhists associate the word with specific contemplative practices, such as repeating a mantra, counting or watching the breath, listening, koan contemplation, visualizations, shikan taza, etc. Generally speaking, most forms of meditation involve the conscious shifting of attention away from thoughts to direct sensory perception, but it may also include watching thoughts solely as a witness (as in mindfulness meditation). I would guess that most people who meditate do so, at least initially, in order to get something--relaxation, improved health, freedom from stress, freedom from fear, attainment of peace, clarity, answers to existential questions, greater creativity, enlightenment, wisdom, presence, etc. Tolle and others have pointed out that any activity upon which attention is strongly focused becomes a form of meditation, whether washing the dishes or watching a sunset, so in that sense the definition becomes very broad. Adya and other nonduality teachers have said that "true" meditation begins only after self realization because then the activity is pursued, if is pursued, for no "gaining reason." This is because there is no longer a felt sense of personhood behind the activity. Both formal and informal meditative activities then become as empty as all other activities--simply different ways that the cosmos manifests in its unfoldment. FWIW, almost any form of meditation triggers what physicians call "the relaxation response," so in that sense, almost any form of meditation is beneficial from a health perspective. Meditation lowers blood pressure, lowers galvanic skin response, relaxes muscles, slows and deepens the breathing process, and engenders a feeling of peacefulness and well being. What's not to like? Started using the "sawtooth breathing" method described by Sekida in sitting meditation a few months back. The point of integrating the body and the mind using the diaphragm -- still body/still mind -- is obviously very powerful. He describes a process that subsequently involves closing his eyes and turning his attention inward (I can provide the quote if this doesn't ring a bell). It seemed to imply to me that the tension in the tanden is released at some point as samahdi sets in. Is that your experience?
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Post by zendancer on Sept 7, 2014 13:52:18 GMT -5
"Meditation" is one of those words that can mean different things to different people. According to different dictionaries it can mean contemplation, reflection, deep thought, prolonged thought, intention, planning, etc. Most people associate the word with sitting in a lotus position pursuing some form of silent contemplation. Buddhists associate the word with specific contemplative practices, such as repeating a mantra, counting or watching the breath, listening, koan contemplation, visualizations, shikan taza, etc. Generally speaking, most forms of meditation involve the conscious shifting of attention away from thoughts to direct sensory perception, but it may also include watching thoughts solely as a witness (as in mindfulness meditation). I would guess that most people who meditate do so, at least initially, in order to get something--relaxation, improved health, freedom from stress, freedom from fear, attainment of peace, clarity, answers to existential questions, greater creativity, enlightenment, wisdom, presence, etc. Tolle and others have pointed out that any activity upon which attention is strongly focused becomes a form of meditation, whether washing the dishes or watching a sunset, so in that sense the definition becomes very broad. Adya and other nonduality teachers have said that "true" meditation begins only after self realization because then the activity is pursued, if is pursued, for no "gaining reason." This is because there is no longer a felt sense of personhood behind the activity. Both formal and informal meditative activities then become as empty as all other activities--simply different ways that the cosmos manifests in its unfoldment. FWIW, almost any form of meditation triggers what physicians call "the relaxation response," so in that sense, almost any form of meditation is beneficial from a health perspective. Meditation lowers blood pressure, lowers galvanic skin response, relaxes muscles, slows and deepens the breathing process, and engenders a feeling of peacefulness and well being. What's not to like? Started using the "sawtooth breathing" method described by Sekida in sitting meditation a few months back. The point of integrating the body and the mind using the diaphragm -- still body/still mind -- is obviously very powerful. He describes a process that subsequently involves closing his eyes and turning his attention inward (I can provide the quote if this doesn't ring a bell). It seemed to imply to me that the tension in the tanden is released at some point as samahdi sets in. Is that your experience? My experience is that everything disappears as Samadhi sets in. Breathing first slows down so much that it feels almost as if one has stopped breathing completely, and then it becomes unnoticeable as does everything else that previously was in conscious awareness. The "off sensation" is felt as it arises and spreads over the body, but at a certain point everything seems to unify into a state of pure awareness without content, and the existence of a witness ceases to exist. Awareness continues without anyone or anything cognizable as a source of the awareness. It is a state of unity consciousness or absolute oneness. This process only becomes cognizable as a process, or as a discrete series of events, before one enters and after one later emerges from Samadhi. I don't recall anything noticeable happening in regard to tension in the tanden, but I never pursued practice in exactly the way Sekida describes it. I did all of the usual preliminary stuff (settling and relaxing the body, expelling more residual air from the lungs than usual, shifting to diaphragmatic breathing, slowing down breathing, unfocusing the eyes, etc), and then shifted attention to whatever seemed interesting at the time (the breathing process, universal sound, the hissing sound of gas logs in a fireplace, the sound of a distant refrigerator, shikan taza, etc). As attention became more and more intensely one-pointed, and thoughts ceased, Samadhi would then ensue. FWIW, I don't do this kind of intense meditative practice anymore, so these comments only apply to what was experienced in the past rather than anything happening at the present time. These days I might sit down and listen to universal sound in the evening for twenty minutes or so as a way to relax and unwind after a long day, but there's no real intensity associated with it. Of course, this could change at any time. Ha ha.
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Post by figgles on Sept 7, 2014 13:54:07 GMT -5
"Meditation" is one of those words that can mean different things to different people. According to different dictionaries it can mean contemplation, reflection, deep thought, prolonged thought, intention, planning, etc. Most people associate the word with sitting in a lotus position pursuing some form of silent contemplation. Buddhists associate the word with specific contemplative practices, such as repeating a mantra, counting or watching the breath, listening, koan contemplation, visualizations, shikan taza, etc. Generally speaking, most forms of meditation involve the conscious shifting of attention away from thoughts to direct sensory perception, but it may also include watching thoughts solely as a witness (as in mindfulness meditation). I would guess that most people who meditate do so, at least initially, in order to get something--relaxation, improved health, freedom from stress, freedom from fear, attainment of peace, clarity, answers to existential questions, greater creativity, enlightenment, wisdom, presence, etc. Tolle and others have pointed out that any activity upon which attention is strongly focused becomes a form of meditation, whether washing the dishes or watching a sunset, so in that sense the definition becomes very broad. Adya and other nonduality teachers have said that "true" meditation begins only after self realization because then the activity is pursued, if is pursued, for no "gaining reason." This is because there is no longer a felt sense of personhood behind the activity. Both formal and informal meditative activities then become as empty as all other activities--simply different ways that the cosmos manifests in its unfoldment. FWIW, almost any form of meditation triggers what physicians call "the relaxation response," so in that sense, almost any form of meditation is beneficial from a health perspective. Meditation lowers blood pressure, lowers galvanic skin response, relaxes muscles, slows and deepens the breathing process, and engenders a feeling of peacefulness and well being. What's not to like? Started using the "sawtooth breathing" method described by Sekida in sitting meditation a few months back. The point of integrating the body and the mind using the diaphragm -- still body/still mind -- is obviously very powerful. He describes a process that subsequently involves closing his eyes and turning his attention inward (I can provide the quote if this doesn't ring a bell). It seemed to imply to me that the tension in the tanden is released at some point as samahdi sets in. Is that your experience? Can you describe 'sawtooth breathing'? I googled and can't find anything...also, what does 'tanden' mean?
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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2014 14:04:18 GMT -5
Started using the "sawtooth breathing" method described by Sekida in sitting meditation a few months back. The point of integrating the body and the mind using the diaphragm -- still body/still mind -- is obviously very powerful. He describes a process that subsequently involves closing his eyes and turning his attention inward (I can provide the quote if this doesn't ring a bell). It seemed to imply to me that the tension in the tanden is released at some point as samahdi sets in. Is that your experience? Can you describe 'sawtooth breathing'? I googled and can't find anything...also, what does 'tanden' mean? I can try, but it's kind of intricate! Sekida uses the term "tanden" to refer generally to the "gut", which includes but isn't limited to the the muscle of the diaphragm. He describes a method of breathing that has several goals, including creating tension in the tanden and stilling the physical movements of the upper body. It involves a long exhalation to empty the lungs as completely as possible, followed by several quick and shallow inhalations in order to keep oxygen levels steady while maintaining the tension in the gut. He actually provides a graph of the process over time that looks like the teeth of a saw.
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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2014 14:04:48 GMT -5
Started using the "sawtooth breathing" method described by Sekida in sitting meditation a few months back. The point of integrating the body and the mind using the diaphragm -- still body/still mind -- is obviously very powerful. He describes a process that subsequently involves closing his eyes and turning his attention inward (I can provide the quote if this doesn't ring a bell). It seemed to imply to me that the tension in the tanden is released at some point as samahdi sets in. Is that your experience? My experience is that everything disappears as Samadhi sets in. Breathing first slows down so much that it feels almost as if one has stopped breathing completely, and then it becomes unnoticeable as does everything else that previously was in conscious awareness. The "off sensation" is felt as it arises and spreads over the body, but at a certain point everything seems to unify into a state of pure awareness without content, and the existence of a witness ceases to exist. Awareness continues without anyone or anything cognizable as a source of the awareness. It is a state of unity consciousness or absolute oneness. This process only becomes cognizable as a process, or as a discrete series of events, before one enters and after one later emerges from Samadhi. I don't recall anything noticeable happening in regard to tension in the tanden, but I never pursued practice in exactly the way Sekida describes it. I did all of the usual preliminary stuff (settling and relaxing the body, expelling more residual air from the lungs than usual, shifting to diaphragmatic breathing, slowing down breathing, unfocusing the eyes, etc), and then shifted attention to whatever seemed interesting at the time (the breathing process, universal sound, the hissing sound of gas logs in a fireplace, the sound of a distant refrigerator, shikan taza, etc). As attention became more and more intensely one-pointed, and thoughts ceased, Samadhi would then ensue. FWIW, I don't do this kind of intense meditative practice anymore, so these comments only apply to what was experienced in the past rather than anything happening at the present time. These days I might sit down and listen to universal sound in the evening for twenty minutes or so as a way to relax and unwind after a long day, but there's no real intensity associated with it. Of course, this could change at any time. Ha ha. Thanks ZD.
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Post by figgles on Sept 7, 2014 14:06:32 GMT -5
Can you describe 'sawtooth breathing'? I googled and can't find anything...also, what does 'tanden' mean? I can try, but it's kind of intricate! Sekida uses the term "tanden" to refer generally to the "gut", which includes but isn't limited to the the muscle of the diaphragm. He describes a method of breathing that has several goals, including creating tension in the tanden and stilling the physical movements of the upper body. It involves a long exhalation to empty the lungs as completely as possible, followed by several quick and shallow inhalations in order to keep oxygen levels steady while maintaining the tension in the gut. He actually provides a graph of the process over time that looks like the teeth of a saw. Interesting. Thanks.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 7, 2014 14:50:50 GMT -5
As I recently wrote to someone interested in this subject, the reasons that Sekida and other Zen teachers are probably so fanatical about posture and technique seem to be based upon two things: 1) the reduction of what physical therapists call "proprioceptive feedback" from the body, and 2) a posture and technique that will allow someone to remain immersed in Samadhi for a long period of time.
In the past I experimented with lots of different meditative techniques, and the general Zen approach (as outlined by Sekida) was the one that seemed to induce the deepest and longest-lasting states of unity consciousness. If someone meditates with bad posture (humped over or leaning in some way), back pain or body feedback will probably prevent deep absorption, and even if deep absorption is attained, it is unlikely that it will be maintained for very long. By following the traditional techniques, it is possible to remain in states of deep Samadhi lasting for many hours. In those states there is literally no body consciousness or self consciousness whatsoever, and it is the reason that Zen folks refer to absolute Samadhi as "the falling off of body and mind." It is a state of total emptiness and silence yet crystal-clear awareness.
From my experience, the function and value of Samadhi seems to be analogous to holding down the "clear" button on a calculator or computer. It sort of bypasses the intellect and connects the body with the cosmos in some deep and direct way. It often leads to CC experiences as well as great clarity concerning issues that were previously obscure. One person told me that after falling into a deep Samadhi one night, several of his major existential questions were spontaneously resolved.
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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2014 14:57:30 GMT -5
As I recently wrote to someone interested in this subject, the reasons that Sekida and other Zen teachers are probably so fanatical about posture and technique seem to be based upon two things: 1) the reduction of what physical therapists call "proprioceptive feedback" from the body, and 2) a posture and technique that will allow someone to remain immersed in Samadhi for a long period of time. In the past I experimented with lots of different meditative techniques, and the general Zen approach (as outlined by Sekida) was the one that seemed to induce the deepest and longest-lasting states of unity consciousness. If someone meditates with bad posture (humped over or leaning in some way), back pain or body feedback will probably prevent deep absorption, and even if deep absorption is attained, it is unlikely that it will be maintained for very long. By following the traditional techniques, it is possible to remain in states of deep Samadhi lasting for many hours. In those states there is literally no body consciousness or self consciousness whatsoever, and it is the reason that Zen folks refer to absolute Samadhi as "the falling off of body and mind." It is a state of total emptiness and silence yet crystal-clear awareness. From my experience, the function and value of Samadhi seems to be analogous to holding down the "clear" button on a calculator or computer. It sort of bypasses the intellect and connects the body with the cosmos in some deep and direct way. It often leads to CC experiences as well as great clarity concerning issues that were previously obscure. One person told me that after falling into a deep Samadhi one night, several of his major existential questions were spontaneously resolved. Since you're referring to "depth" that would seem on one hand to apply to various levels of absolute samadhi, but on the other hand, with the description of the off sensation and the subsequent falling away of all sensation, there also seems to me to be a black and white line where samadhi is still only relative. Is this correct?
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 7, 2014 15:00:10 GMT -5
Meditation isn't something we do, it's a description of what we experience.. stillness, clarity.. Well...obviously Mr. Genoud's retreat participants were expecting their meditation practice to 'do' something for them; the author was simply pointing out that lots of folks are doing it for some sort of personal benefit aside from stillness/clarity. Stillness and clarity are key to the realization of 'personal benefit' that does something for the experiencer.. in other words, with stillness and clarity the experiencer realizes the way to experience personal benefit..
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Post by zendancer on Sept 7, 2014 15:26:31 GMT -5
As I recently wrote to someone interested in this subject, the reasons that Sekida and other Zen teachers are probably so fanatical about posture and technique seem to be based upon two things: 1) the reduction of what physical therapists call "proprioceptive feedback" from the body, and 2) a posture and technique that will allow someone to remain immersed in Samadhi for a long period of time. In the past I experimented with lots of different meditative techniques, and the general Zen approach (as outlined by Sekida) was the one that seemed to induce the deepest and longest-lasting states of unity consciousness. If someone meditates with bad posture (humped over or leaning in some way), back pain or body feedback will probably prevent deep absorption, and even if deep absorption is attained, it is unlikely that it will be maintained for very long. By following the traditional techniques, it is possible to remain in states of deep Samadhi lasting for many hours. In those states there is literally no body consciousness or self consciousness whatsoever, and it is the reason that Zen folks refer to absolute Samadhi as "the falling off of body and mind." It is a state of total emptiness and silence yet crystal-clear awareness. From my experience, the function and value of Samadhi seems to be analogous to holding down the "clear" button on a calculator or computer. It sort of bypasses the intellect and connects the body with the cosmos in some deep and direct way. It often leads to CC experiences as well as great clarity concerning issues that were previously obscure. One person told me that after falling into a deep Samadhi one night, several of his major existential questions were spontaneously resolved. Since you're referring to "depth" that would seem on one hand to apply to various levels of absolute samadhi, but on the other hand, with the description of the off sensation and the subsequent falling away of all sensation, there also seems to me to be a black and white line where samadhi is still only relative. Is this correct? I can only say that "a shallow Samadhi" still has a few thoughts bubbling up, and awareness is sort of floating around amidst the bubbles. When thoughts totally cease, the samadhi usually goes deep. It feels as if awareness sinks straight down to the bottom of some deep ocean trench, and then lies there on the ocean floor, where it remains, unmoving. It is very much like getting onto a high speed elevator dropping toward the center of the earth. There is a definite and distinct sensation of sinking downward or within, but other than the feeling that everything is coalescing into oneness, I can't remember any clear black and white point beyond which a shallow Samadhi suddenly turns into a deep one. Needless to say, perhaps, Samadhi is a difficult subject to write about or convey anything very specific. Sekida probably does as good a job as anyone.
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Post by steven on Sept 7, 2014 16:04:42 GMT -5
Tanden is not the whole 'gut', rather, it is the area behind the belly button...as one sustains practice within the session, one's seat of attention is centered in and directed from the tanden.
For most people in our culture, if you try to identify the place in your body from which your attention is directed, your 'center' so to speak, it will be from the head, while some will feel their center is in the heart area.
The breathing methods that Sekida and others teach, are for dropping the center from which attention is directed from the head or heart down to the tanden just behind the naval.
Samadhi only occurs when the center is moved down to the tanden....sometimes this happens in a sporting event or a highly focussed activity, where one naturally ceases thought and emotion and are just in a kind of highly alert flow.
When one is centered in the head the intellect, and problem solving is prominent, in the heart centered person emotion and creativity are prominent, but when one is centered in the tanden, a kind of highly alert non-cognitive clarity of action is prominent.
Only when one is centered in the tanden does relative or absolute Samadhi open up and flow. Most of the time this happens unconsciously, but in this type of meditation practice one is actively moving the center to the tanden.
The breathing techniques and posture are designed to ease one's movement of the 'hub' of their attention from the head or heart to the tanden in a conscious manner, instead of a random occurrence like a life or death event or an athletic endeavor.
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Post by steven on Sept 7, 2014 16:18:47 GMT -5
Regarding breathing techniques and the sawtooth method.
Close your eyelids to where there is only a smallish slit of fuzzy light coming in.
1. Sit in an upright but neutral posture in a way that the belly button can move in and out unobstructed.
2. Take several deep inhales and exhales as far as you can go, BUT DO NOT CHEST BREATH, belly breath by moving the belly button in and out, which expands and contracts the tanden.
3. Now belly breath in and out in a very natural way, only inhaling and exhaling as much as you normally do if you were not paying attention to breath.
4. Identify the 'horizon' of where your exhalation naturally and comfortably stops, and turns to inhalation....at this horizon of natural exhalation, you can still expel quite a bit of air out of your lungs if you choose to...experiment with this for a few breaths, so you know where the natural horizon falls, where you could still push out more air by exhaling further than your natural breathing patterns if you choose to...do all this while still belly breathing, not chest breathing.
5. Inhale slightly deeper than normal by pushing the belly button outward, then breath out by pulling the belly button inward nice and smoothly, relaxing as you do so. When you get to the natural turning point where you would normally begin to inhale, do a series of quick exhalation puffs, by sharply pulling in the belly button a little more with each puff, as if you where studder stepping the rest of the breath out...pause for a moment at each outward 'phfuh'....repeat the studder step exhalation on each exhale, but remember to only begin the studder step when about half of the breath is already exhaled out, at the natural point where you would normally make the turn to an inhale.
6. Repeat this over and over, relaxing into it...with attention on, and FROM WITHIN the space behind the naval during each outward 'phfuh'.
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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2014 20:16:42 GMT -5
Since you're referring to "depth" that would seem on one hand to apply to various levels of absolute samadhi, but on the other hand, with the description of the off sensation and the subsequent falling away of all sensation, there also seems to me to be a black and white line where samadhi is still only relative. Is this correct? I can only say that "a shallow Samadhi" still has a few thoughts bubbling up, and awareness is sort of floating around amidst the bubbles. When thoughts totally cease, the samadhi usually goes deep. It feels as if awareness sinks straight down to the bottom of some deep ocean trench, and then lies there on the ocean floor, where it remains, unmoving. It is very much like getting onto a high speed elevator dropping toward the center of the earth. There is a definite and distinct sensation of sinking downward or within, but other than the feeling that everything is coalescing into oneness, I can't remember any clear black and white point beyond which a shallow Samadhi suddenly turns into a deep one. Needless to say, perhaps, Samadhi is a difficult subject to write about or convey anything very specific. Sekida probably does as good a job as anyone. Well I really do appreciate your efforts along those lines. Sitting practice, minute-by-minute noticing, daily experience, these all change with time. Some of the change is in cycles, but some of it isn't. Part of that change is experimenting with these methods, and while what happens, happens with no expectations, it's at the very least a fun pastime to compare the notes of my relatively immature practice with a veteran. I've got reference for alot of what you describe, but some of it isn't something I've encountered as of yet.
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Post by mamza on Sept 13, 2014 23:51:02 GMT -5
Since you're referring to "depth" that would seem on one hand to apply to various levels of absolute samadhi, but on the other hand, with the description of the off sensation and the subsequent falling away of all sensation, there also seems to me to be a black and white line where samadhi is still only relative. Is this correct? I can only say that "a shallow Samadhi" still has a few thoughts bubbling up, and awareness is sort of floating around amidst the bubbles. When thoughts totally cease, the samadhi usually goes deep. It feels as if awareness sinks straight down to the bottom of some deep ocean trench, and then lies there on the ocean floor, where it remains, unmoving. It is very much like getting onto a high speed elevator dropping toward the center of the earth. There is a definite and distinct sensation of sinking downward or within, but other than the feeling that everything is coalescing into oneness, I can't remember any clear black and white point beyond which a shallow Samadhi suddenly turns into a deep one. Needless to say, perhaps, Samadhi is a difficult subject to write about or convey anything very specific. Sekida probably does as good a job as anyone. I hopped on just for a second and came across this and man it was like a smack to the face. There was this one time on a trip across the country with my family where I was slowing my breathing with my eyes shut to the point where I could feel my heart beat when suddenly it felt like I fell through the floor. It literally felt like disconnecting from the body and I remember convincing myself "Bring it back.... yeah... just go right back to your body... it's cool--just bring it back." It was kind of scary at the time. Since then I've repeatedly gotten to the point right before the drop, but it doesn't happen now. I get too focused on it happening to me and lose focus. Pretty wild stuff.
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