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Post by heretic on Jun 28, 2011 17:47:11 GMT -5
Is watching the breathing the same as focusing on the breathing? Cuz I do a breath meditation, too, where I simply watch the breathing. I call it, allowing. Focusing, for me, would have an adverse effect on the breathing. I feel it would influence the breathing, like the inhale/exhale natural fulcrum point. The delicate balance of the body is so subtle.
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Post by runstill on Jun 28, 2011 19:31:01 GMT -5
{Exercise: In order to investigate Awareness, ask the following question: What is it that is aware of Awareness? Then look and see what the question is pointing to. If you see any kind of form, object, or location, even the most subtle one, ask, What is it that is aware of this (form, object, or location)? and then refocus your attention. For example, you might visualize Awareness as being located in the head. If so, ask, What is it that is aware that Awareness is located in the head, and again look and see. Since any form, object, or location whatsoever is not Awareness because Awareness is what is aware of it, [you will not be able to describe Awareness.] However, by doing this exercise, you will be able to recognize that Awareness is what you truly are.With practice, we find that we can rest in Awareness for longer and longer periods before asking again. Eventually, we are able to omit asking, and to simply rest in Awareness. And finally, we may realize that Awareness is always what we are, and is always what we have been.}
I found the above very helpful from a non-duality web site. I'm stuck at always turning awareness into a thought/object but it is an enjoyable exercise.
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Post by therealfake on Jun 28, 2011 21:19:50 GMT -5
Your not the only one, the whole world is doing it... There's no way not to do it. There's the Me that doesn't know it's a Me... Then there's the Me that believes it is a separate Me, from the world... The Me that believes the belief of a separate Me, is false... The Me that believes all beliefs are false... The Me that believes it is the awareness... The Me that believes it cannot know what the awareness is... The Me that believes it is nothingness, in which awareness and the world arises... And so on and so on... Is there an end? Or was there ever a beginning?
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2011 1:59:17 GMT -5
Well, there soitainly aren't a whole gaggle of little Me's running around willy nilly. Hehe.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2011 8:38:57 GMT -5
I see how 'focus' can be a confusing thingy. A focus on the breathing in meditation, for example, may be to get out of the thinking by focusing attention on something that's actually happening now, which is useful. Obviously, what happens next could be thoughts about the breathing, and noticing those thoughts is what is being referred to by 'gently bring attention back'. You're not actually being asked to 'do' something with the attention, just to notice where it went. The attention comes back by itself in the noticing, right? So it's not only gentle, it's effortless, as is the noticing. Whatever you might perceive as effort in all of that is actually the falling into the river. Yes, noticing that i’ve been swimming does lead right back to the activity at hand (e.g. attending to breathing). Methinks the gently instruction is really another way of saying don’t add reactive bs to the effortless noticing and returning. Or, you don’t need to wrench yourself back on task. Of course, the reactive bs and wrenching behavior is also something to notice, and that’s also the point. If i were to believe in God, that unexplainable spontaneous noticing and consequent return would be a good example of the grace of god. Guess it's just grace. Okay, Grace. That’s how i’ve thought of thought as well -- at least partly -- in my experience it’s almost like a film that covers over what is actually happening. (In contrast to this, i think (!), i was reading yesterday “the preliminary instructions” for “the Awareness Watching Awareness Practice Instructions” which are part of the “The Most Rapid Means to Eternal Bliss.” Talk about a hook, eh? Helpfully, I thought (!), thought is defined as the following: “ Thoughts are the words of your native language in the mind. If your native language is English, and the language you think in is English, then thoughts are those English words in your mind. If you think in two languages, then thoughts are the words of those two languages in your mind.” This is a much narrower definition than I’ve been working with. (Though I’ve been working with something undefined.) I say it's helpful because it's nice to define the terms, even if it's not a definition that perfect.) Still, this concept of changing the constricting focus rather than ending it, seems like what i’m pointing to as one of the shortcomings of meditation for awakening purposes. That’s what I know as mindfulness. What i’ve found is that that sort of meditation is best done when the mind isn’t super roiled up. To calm the mind down, a meditation with more focus is needed (like counting the breaths). After a while of doing the focused stuff, the focus can be released. If one finds themselves swimming a lot then one can go back to the focus, sometimes called an 'anchor,' until it can be dropped again. ( edit: Oops bad mixed metaphors...When a lot of abidance in the mind is happening, the greater-focus practice can be used until there is some consistency of attention, then the anchor can be pulled up again?? whatev.) My internal enigma is now saying 'anchors away!' Awakening appears to be a state where no anchor is needed, and the line has been cut?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2011 8:44:19 GMT -5
Maybe 'what is' refers to what ACTUALLY is rather than what we think it is. Or not.....who knows? Nobody knows the troubles I've seen... (I love the opening portrait-shot of LA in this video -- quite a contrast to the smiling persona shown pretty much everywhere else.)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2011 8:47:39 GMT -5
Is watching the breathing the same as focusing on the breathing? Cuz I do a breath meditation, too, where I simply watch the breathing. I call it, allowing. Focusing, for me, would have an adverse effect on the breathing. I feel it would influence the breathing, like the inhale/exhale natural fulcrum point. The delicate balance of the body is so subtle. I don't know. The way i've been using focusing is related to attention and concentration. Do you ever zero in on a particular sensation? Like a tingling in the scalp, or the particular movement of air through the nostrils? That's what I'm referring to as focusing. It is watching or allowing too -- just with a limited range/scope. This type of meditation comes from the Vipassana tradition more than Zen.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2011 8:49:21 GMT -5
{Exercise: In order to investigate Awareness, ask the following question: What is it that is aware of Awareness? Then look and see what the question is pointing to. If you see any kind of form, object, or location, even the most subtle one, ask, What is it that is aware of this (form, object, or location)? and then refocus your attention. For example, you might visualize Awareness as being located in the head. If so, ask, What is it that is aware that Awareness is located in the head, and again look and see. Since any form, object, or location whatsoever is not Awareness because Awareness is what is aware of it, [you will not be able to describe Awareness.] However, by doing this exercise, you will be able to recognize that Awareness is what you truly are.With practice, we find that we can rest in Awareness for longer and longer periods before asking again. Eventually, we are able to omit asking, and to simply rest in Awareness. And finally, we may realize that Awareness is always what we are, and is always what we have been.} I found the above very helpful from a non-duality web site. I'm stuck at always turning awareness into a thought/object but it is an enjoyable exercise. That does seem good.
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Post by therealfake on Jun 29, 2011 9:25:04 GMT -5
Well, there soitainly aren't a whole gaggle of little Me's running around willy nilly. Hehe. Actually there are, they just can't all sit together at the same Satsang...
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2011 10:28:23 GMT -5
That’s what I know as mindfulness. What i’ve found is that that sort of meditation is best done when the mind isn’t super roiled up. To calm the mind down, a meditation with more focus is needed (like counting the breaths). After a while of doing the focused stuff, the focus can be released. If one finds themselves swimming a lot then one can go back to the focus, sometimes called an 'anchor,' until it can be dropped again. ( edit: Oops bad mixed metaphors...When a lot of abidance in the mind is happening, the greater-focus practice can be used until there is some consistency of attention, then the anchor can be pulled up again?? whatev.) My internal enigma is now saying 'anchors away!' Awakening appears to be a state where no anchor is needed, and the line has been cut? Yeah, I guess that sort of meditation is useful when mind is trippin, though one danger is getting into the habit of tripin.....meditating....tripin.....meditating, and using this as a life management tool. What's betterer is activating that 'noticing' as many times throughout the day as you can notice, so that this 'meditation' never actually begins or ends. Then again, we're talking about noticing that you can notice, which just happens. Noticing is more like the flickering of your divine eyelids, and suddenly your back on the river bank again, drying off.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2011 12:14:25 GMT -5
Yeah, I guess that sort of meditation is useful when mind is trippin, though one danger is getting into the habit of tripin.....meditating....tripin.....meditating, and using this as a life management tool. What's betterer is activating that 'noticing' as many times throughout the day as you can notice, so that this 'meditation' never actually begins or ends. Then again, we're talking about noticing that you can notice, which just happens. Noticing is more like the flickering of your divine eyelids, and suddenly your back on the river bank again, drying off. Hmm, well I'm not sure what you mean by ‘activating that noticing.’ How is noticing distinct from awareness? It seems like ‘noticing’ happens already throughout the day. But, as you say, we’re talking about noticing that you can notice. That happens when I'm not caught up in thinking (and other things?). Is noticing noticing the same as being aware of being aware? Elsewhere you remarked on the ability to not notice stuff that the mind doesn’t want to be aware of. I still don’t get that. It seems, by definition, if the mind is avoiding something successfully, one won’t be aware of it/notice it?? Maybe you were talking to folks that are post-mind-avoidance issues -- I can imagine how, in retrospect, this might be an obvious and curious phenomena. From the pre-mind-avoidance perspective, however, ignorance is bliss (but not really). I simply do not know what my mind is avoiding.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2011 17:52:01 GMT -5
Not sure what pre-mind and post-mind avoidance is. The psychological phenomena of projection and denial are unconscious processes. The projector or denier is not consciously aware of his projection or denial, and yet there is awareness of that which is being projected or denied or it wouldn't be happening.
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Post by heretic on Jun 29, 2011 18:25:24 GMT -5
Well, there soitainly aren't a whole gaggle of little Me's running around willy nilly. Hehe. But I wouldn't rule out a passel.
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