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Post by onehandclapping on Jun 23, 2011 16:43:38 GMT -5
18 years old!!! So young! Great to start that young. Trying to wreck your life early eh? hahaha. Hope you didn't want to be somebody someday. hahaha. Ah, you are from the Netherlands so you probably weren't raised with the American sense of "I gotta do something with my life and be somebody" so you might be alright. Anyways I wanted to contradict all these "windbags" for the fun of it by saying that all this meditation stuff is great to do, BUT not needed to realize what you are and to lose the fear. Yes, it might be the path you will take. Or it won't be. If it is, it will only be the path to helping you realize that it isn't useful. Chew on that.
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Post by heretic on Jun 23, 2011 16:56:19 GMT -5
18 years old!!! So young! Great to start that young. Trying to wreck your life early eh? hahaha. Hope you didn't want to be somebody someday. hahaha. Ah, you are from the Netherlands so you probably weren't raised with the American sense of "I gotta do something with my life and be somebody" so you might be alright. Anyways I wanted to contradict all these "windbags" for the fun of it by saying that all this meditation stuff is great to do, BUT not needed to realize what you are and to lose the fear. Yes, it might be the path you will take. Or it won't be. If it is, it will only be the path to helping you realize that it isn't useful. Chew on that. ;D Chewed and spat out! Now hold on thar, pard. Meditation IS synonymous with the practice of non-doing. We aren't meditating to make things perfect or to do things perfectly. We are meditating to realize, or make real for ourselves the fact that things already are perfect. This has everything to do with holding the present moment in its fullness, without imposing anything extra on it. In other words- meditation is not something we do, it's something we live. Isn't that the point?
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Post by therealfake on Jun 23, 2011 22:01:56 GMT -5
18 years old!!! So young! Great to start that young. Trying to wreck your life early eh? hahaha. Hope you didn't want to be somebody someday. hahaha. Ah, you are from the Netherlands so you probably weren't raised with the American sense of "I gotta do something with my life and be somebody" so you might be alright. Anyways I wanted to contradict all these "windbags" for the fun of it by saying that all this meditation stuff is great to do, BUT not needed to realize what you are and to lose the fear. Yes, it might be the path you will take. Or it won't be. If it is, it will only be the path to helping you realize that it isn't useful. Chew on that. ;D Chewed and spat out! Now hold on thar, pard. Meditation IS synonymous with the practice of non-doing. We aren't meditating to make things perfect or to do things perfectly. We are meditating to realize, or make real for ourselves the fact that things already are perfect. This has everything to do with holding the present moment in its fullness, without imposing anything extra on it. In other words- meditation is not something we do, it's something we live. Isn't that the point? Yes, that is the point... Life is living you and when the awareness can be there, one step behind as the non resisting witness, of that expression, you become free... Most peeps can have glimpses of that, but there are illusions that manifest in that expression that pull the awareness away from that simplicity... Like meditation, it's that innocence, that zen beginners mind, that gently brings the attention back, no matter how attractive or horrifying the thought was... And thus the freshness and aliveness of the moment is reborn... ;D
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Post by heretic on Jun 24, 2011 8:10:53 GMT -5
;D Chewed and spat out! Now hold on thar, pard. Meditation IS synonymous with the practice of non-doing. We aren't meditating to make things perfect or to do things perfectly. We are meditating to realize, or make real for ourselves the fact that things already are perfect. This has everything to do with holding the present moment in its fullness, without imposing anything extra on it. In other words- meditation is not something we do, it's something we live. Isn't that the point? Yes, that is the point... Life is living you and when the awareness can be there, one step behind as the non resisting witness, of that expression, you become free... Most peeps can have glimpses of that, but there are illusions that manifest in that expression that pull the awareness away from that simplicity... Like meditation, it's that innocence, that zen beginners mind, that gently brings the attention back, no matter how attractive or horrifying the thought was... And thus the freshness and aliveness of the moment is reborn... ;D Well, yeah. I liken the process of meditation to wearing a hat for what feels like a really long time-(relative reference to time). That's the inward stroke of meditation. Then, when the meditation has done you (silence), and you go about your day to day, it feels like the hat is still there. This is the outward stroke of meditation. But. It happens of its own accord. I don't have to force anything. It's gentle, which goes hand in hand with innocence, and I trust it, implicitly. There is a deeper awareness of goodness, beauty, harmony, love, compassion, joy, understanding, forgiveness. The fear of death is gone... Meditation- Le Petite Morte. ;D
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jazz
Full Member
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Post by jazz on Jun 24, 2011 14:10:08 GMT -5
In a way I'm happy about the discovering of the knot, because it means I'm getting somewhere, right? Ummm, right Hehe. I was watching Richard Sylvester last night and he was talking about how nothing you do has anything at all to do with awakening, and in a sense it's true, but I see it as one of those careless statements (Like 'everything is perfect' HA!) that lends itself to some serious misunderstandings. The sense in which it's true is that nobody ever gets closer to the Truth since you are already That, so all the looking around is a little like looking for the glasses that are on top of your head. You're never going to find them or get any closer to them by looking around, so we can say all the looking is pointless and can never result in finding. On the other hand, as long as there is the belief that you may have left them on the night stand or in the bathroom, you're unlikely to realize they're on your head, so can we really say that the experience of not finding them in the bathroom has nothing to do with that realization? The way delusion seems to develop in humans is that we develop the capacity to conceptualize ourselves as separate, which brings some bad feelings that we try (and fail) to resolve, so we ignore them, which of course doesn't make them go away. Diverting attention from them becomes a human preoccupation and so the state of humanity is one of hyper busy-ness in an attempt to distract from an unrelenting anxiety about which we may know little or nothing. Almost everybody dies in precisely that condition. In 'serious' spiritual work (Not the process of further distraction in which most seekers are engaged) this process has to be reversed. Everything we ignored has to be faced, which is the spiritual equivalent of sitting on the kitchen floor crying and screaming until we can't cry or scream anymore. If we're looking for more happy distractions in our spiritual search, this is NOT going to happen. When we're done, we're back to where were at two years old when we realized we're separate people and have to fight for what's MINE! MINE! MINE! At this point, we can start honestly questioning that assumption to see if it's really true, because we're no longer playing moronic hide and seek games with ourselves. Yeah...Too much hard work, it seems. Still I'm probably gonna keep going, as far as I can tell at the moment. This really gets you hooked. I've always been interested in truth, but I never imagined it to look like this, intellectually speaking, that is, and if Enlightenment was ever to be, umm, realized, "I" would be blown away, hehe Thank you E., appreciate it.
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Post by onehandclapping on Jun 27, 2011 11:51:42 GMT -5
Yes, that is the point... Life is living you and when the awareness can be there, one step behind as the non resisting witness, of that expression, you become free... Most peeps can have glimpses of that, but there are illusions that manifest in that expression that pull the awareness away from that simplicity... Like meditation, it's that innocence, that zen beginners mind, that gently brings the attention back, no matter how attractive or horrifying the thought was... And thus the freshness and aliveness of the moment is reborn... ;D Well, yeah. I liken the process of meditation to wearing a hat for what feels like a really long time-(relative reference to time). That's the inward stroke of meditation. Then, when the meditation has done you (silence), and you go about your day to day, it feels like the hat is still there. This is the outward stroke of meditation. But. It happens of its own accord. I don't have to force anything. It's gentle, which goes hand in hand with innocence, and I trust it, implicitly. There is a deeper awareness of goodness, beauty, harmony, love, compassion, joy, understanding, forgiveness. The fear of death is gone... Meditation- Le Petite Morte. ;D Hahaha! Yeah guys let's give the kid another thing to do before he realizes what he is. Hahaha. This kid is only a few years into the building of the self and you want him to start yet another structure to get back to what he felt possibly less than a decade before?? I say yes to meditation for some forty year old person who has lived completely covered up by thoughts and self identification cause that mind has hardened and needs the kendo stick to soften it up. But for such a young mind who has come to seeking so quickly I would instead encourage the teachings of someone like Tony Parsons. Allow this kid to hopefully skip past all of the time spent sitting in lotus and missing out on the exciting Friday nights in the Netherlands with all those hot women!! Hahaha. Everyone is so serious about their practices of meditation. I'm sure this little statement will get all you meditation nazi's up in arms, ready to go to battle for your practices. Hahaha. Back to Netherlands kid and sorry I can't remember your name right now, but be wary of those who take this so serious. Nothing about that which you are is serious. In fact you will become child like again once it is realized and everything will return to being fun. Even doing crappy things can become entertaining in just watching the thoughts that pop in your head. Hahaha. Sometimes that is funnier than fun stuff. Hahaha. The grumblings of that old self. Hahaha. Anyways, you are this moment and everything in this moment. Let that be your mediation. Focus your energy on that which IS right now. You are complete. Let me say that again, YOU ARE COMPLETE!! This moment holds everything you are and everything your mind tells you, you are missing. Ignore that lying mind and focus beyond it, on NOW. If it's playing video games or driving a car or playing sports or eating a small woodland creature. That's where your "mediation" can take place. LOTUS POSITION NOT REQUIRED. Hahaha. Good luck brother. I gotta go get in a bunker now for the in coming bombs from these old guys now. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!
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Post by enigma on Jun 27, 2011 15:29:53 GMT -5
I guess I'm one a them old guys, but I'm also the self appointed practice curmudgeon (hehe) so no argument from me on that.
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Post by heretic on Jun 27, 2011 16:08:46 GMT -5
ROFL!!! Meditation nazis. You know, I've been labeled a lot of things as a result of people's misunderstandings, and misgivings when they learn in a conversation that I meditate. It's usually a comment questioning my manhood, or of being some sort flower child hippie-type, or even an insinuation about me being the antichrist. Nazi is new. Well done. Actually, you were the one who began the bomb dropping in your first post. It's a thread about meditation. I do not sit in the lotus position when I meditate. Never really have. It's unnecessary. It doesn't have to be stone-still quiet when I'm meditating. I have meditated in truck stops with the diesel engine running, and other truckers' air horns announcing their arrival at the fuel stations. I have meditated on trains from Connecticut to Manhattan, and back. On a downtown park bench near the original Chicago Watertower, across from the Drake Hotel. Nobody knew what I was doing. There is no flair involved in meditation. It's more about quieting the mind. Which makes it much easier to be present in one's day to day. I'm sure it would be an asset for those who ATA. Maybe you should consider learning to meditate? p.s. did you 'old guys' know that a person who has been meditating for ten years has the physiology and bio-markers of a person 12 years younger than their age?
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Post by souley on Jun 27, 2011 17:14:20 GMT -5
It seems to me that if we rush around doing stuff all the time, we can cover up all our fears and issues and they never really get to the surface. As I get more space through ATA, meditating, whatever, these issues can float up to the surface so to speak, and then be non-dealt with:) Our inner world is broken and there is a lot of pain and conflict, and through some much needed space, those conflicts can start to resolve themselves. Of course we can realize without meditating or some other kind of space-practice, but to me it seems very helpful. If someone is stressed or has some kind of problems, I can't think of anything better then to just be, see, feel and let it play out.
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Post by mamza on Jun 27, 2011 17:17:52 GMT -5
Meditation itself is fine. As long as you don't take it to some religious level where meditation is 'the way' and all that crap. I would consider ATA to be meditation. I would consider a walk to be meditation. It's not really about meditating your way to enlightenment, it's more about taking the time to just chill out and relax. Let the thoughts dissipate instead of encouraging them.
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Post by onehandclapping on Jun 27, 2011 18:58:21 GMT -5
ROFL!!! Meditation nazis. You know, I've been labeled a lot of things as a result of people's misunderstandings,. Maybe you should consider learning to meditate? Hahaha. Now you are changing what we were talking about. I initially read the kids post and he was asking questions about sitting still and all that jazz. You are talking now about how you meditate throughout the day. Which seems to me to sound more like just living life versus actual focused meditation. If we are calling that meditation then one can "meditate" while having sex with a hooker while smoking a doobie. Hahaha. But I thought we were talking about focus. And my whole point to him was that he didn't need to focus to be. You don't have to focus on the sound a truck horn to be that which you are. You can carry on with life just as you are right now at this second. Now for the kid, if his path right now is to meditate then all the power to him. But I was letting him know that even though everybody and their sister says you need to still the mind to feel this and blah blah blah, he really doesn't have to and it will ultimately fail for him. Hahaha. He can skip that mind created trap of I gotta get my mind silent before I can see what I am. Hahaha. Even in ATA you don't have to have a silent mind. The mind noise is just as beautiful as the silence. Or the tree. Or the deer your form sees. Or the squirrel. Maybe for some they prefer the silence but I find it entertaining. It's simply just another expression of This. Hahaha. No need for it to be gone. if it is there, great!!! If it isn't, great!! That which I am, that which you are, that which is everything is ALWAYS present and felt. Gotta go cook now. Hahaha. Hungry!!!
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Post by mamza on Jun 27, 2011 19:39:23 GMT -5
Well, if he's able to skip that particular trap, then let him; but being roughly the same age as this guy, I can tell you that even if he skips this particular trap there will probably be another one in its place. In my experience it seems much more beneficial to plow through it and figure out that it was unnecessary for yourself than to take someone else's word for it.
I've had people tell me all sorts of things so that I can 'avoid the problems they went through.' Go to school, don't steal, etc., etc. If you don't have to put yourself into the position it would take to learn those things first-hand, then don't. But sometimes you've just gotta try and do something to realize you can't. Never take someone else's word for it. Especially not mine.
As for this particular trap, it might still be useful to do. Regardless of it being a trap, it CAN (not that it WILL or SHOULD) give him enough space between the thoughts to have insights / realizations, possibly or not possibly including the realization of who/what he is.
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Post by onehandclapping on Jun 27, 2011 20:02:17 GMT -5
Hahaha of course it might be useful. I said that earlier. He will end up doing whatever ends up being done. And all traps are the same trap, the false self. It's a trap if he tries anything. Hahaha. And yet he is already free of all of traps!!! Hahaha.
Heck yeah, learn all you can. I encourage folks to study so hard on it that you know the answers before the teacher answers, hahaha. Then when you know allthe answers and are filled up you might have the opening to see that all of that knowledge is useless. Hahahaha. Classic. Very very funny cosmic joke. Hahahaha.
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Post by heretic on Jun 27, 2011 21:03:17 GMT -5
It seems to me that if we rush around doing stuff all the time, we can cover up all our fears and issues and they never really get to the surface. As I get more space through ATA, meditating, whatever, these issues can float up to the surface so to speak, and then be non-dealt with:) Our inner world is broken and there is a lot of pain and conflict, and through some much needed space, those conflicts can start to resolve themselves. Of course we can realize without meditating or some other kind of space-practice, but to me it seems very helpful. If someone is stressed or has some kind of problems, I can't think of anything better then to just be, see, feel and let it play out. Thanks, souley! Great post! I was starting to feel like the last of the Mohicans around here.. Yes. When our minds become quieter, we are more able to see and feel the things that have been bubbling up, those things which we have been ignoring. With a quieter mind, we can hold them in our awareness. Awareness is healing.
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Post by heretic on Jun 27, 2011 21:40:10 GMT -5
ROFL!!! Meditation nazis. You know, I've been labeled a lot of things as a result of people's misunderstandings,. Maybe you should consider learning to meditate? Hahaha. Now you are changing what we were talking about. I initially read the kids post and he was asking questions about sitting still and all that jazz. You are talking now about how you meditate throughout the day. Which seems to me to sound more like just living life versus actual focused meditation. If we are calling that meditation then one can "meditate" while having sex with a hooker while smoking a doobie. Hahaha. But I thought we were talking about focus. And my whole point to him was that he didn't need to focus to be. You don't have to focus on the sound a truck horn to be that which you are. You can carry on with life just as you are right now at this second. Now for the kid, if his path right now is to meditate then all the power to him. But I was letting him know that even though everybody and their sister says you need to still the mind to feel this and blah blah blah, he really doesn't have to and it will ultimately fail for him. Hahaha. He can skip that mind created trap of I gotta get my mind silent before I can see what I am. Hahaha. Even in ATA you don't have to have a silent mind. The mind noise is just as beautiful as the silence. Or the tree. Or the deer your form sees. Or the squirrel. Maybe for some they prefer the silence but I find it entertaining. It's simply just another expression of This. Hahaha. No need for it to be gone. if it is there, great!!! If it isn't, great!! That which I am, that which you are, that which is everything is ALWAYS present and felt. Gotta go cook now. Hahaha. Hungry!!! Meditation isn't really about focus. I begin by silently repeating a mantra to myself, and when I realize I'm no longer repeating the mantra because thoughts have stirred up, I acknowledge the thoughts, and gently return to the mantra. A lot of people think that meditation is like wrestling a herd of elephants to the ground. For me, it's more like tip-toeing through a herd of elephants without waking them up. I have a wonderful meditation teacher. She taught me how back in 1998, and we have become great friends over the years. We are more likely to be seen enjoying a cup of coffee these days, than to be heard discussing meditation. Our canvas is life. She once told me, "heretic, I don't care if you see the full-blown incarnations of Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad dancing and singing before you. Gently return to your mantra." Ya' gotta love a teacher like that!
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