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May 17, 2011 16:11:41 GMT -5
Post by vacant on May 17, 2011 16:11:41 GMT -5
What do you make of ZD’s exhortation to turn away from thought? What do you think is the worth of persisting down the road of reasoning, just this one more time of course, before letting it go? Is it not another endeavor to prepare the mind for no-mind? Is it worth beating the dead horse? I know that my thinking isn't going to get me anywhere, but I'm not going to let it go, "letting go" is a bit of a useless phrase imo because it's not really in my power to let go and I have no desire whatsoever to let it go. Why don't I try ZD's approach? When I do ATA after 10 minutes I get bored and because nothing is happening I feel like an idiot for having wasted that time. It's not like I'm a buzy man, I have plenty of spare time, but when I kill it with useless stuff at least it doesn't make me feel like an idiot and live through failure again and again. Your honesty is touching and great to read. Especially how you come clean about your visceral fear of failure. Let’s not worry about ATA if that approach does not suit you. We are not here to start a religion based on ATA. Maybe another road, someone else advise or your own findings is just the ticket, but you have been around for a while and I strongly suspect that you are really here for something other than discussing rhetoric statements… Hey, I don’t know if you have read Franklin Merrell-Wolff; his “guidance” does not deny the value of the thinking process, at least until he comes to transcend it that is, (when he too advocates that the thinking mind is not the right tool for the kind of understanding he refers to). I mention him here because he talks a gratifying intellectual language. His book "Experience and philosophy" whether a blessing or a curse, surely threw me full on in seeking mode. Sorry about that, it wasn’t so much to talk about Question, just wanted to tell you FWIW what I felt about Question’s approach, with respect. Here I can only appologize for not engaging, I do not have the mental capacity to understand what you are refering to (honestly) PS I love this forum and I love you but I am too lost to explain things in any way that they could make sense.
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May 17, 2011 17:44:59 GMT -5
Post by mamza on May 17, 2011 17:44:59 GMT -5
Well I wouldn't see ATA as failure. ATA removes ideas like failure or success altogether--it clears your head of everything. You're probably having such a hard time because you expect something to happen. Sure, at the very least I expect to go beyond the expectation of failure or success, which doesn't happen and so I fail again. I can't ATA for its own sake and don't really believe novices who claim to be able to do that. I'm not sure what to tell you, then. ATA isn't really something I do so much as something that happens. It happens more frequently with certain activities than others, but interest in those activities can't really be faked. Most of the time it only lasts for maybe 10 seconds at a time, but it happens more and more frequently as long as I let the attention go where it wants to go. Yes, I'm a novice; no, I don't know that much about all this stuff. All I can tell you is what has worked for me.
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May 17, 2011 18:52:41 GMT -5
Post by onehandclapping on May 17, 2011 18:52:41 GMT -5
So is my hair apart of my body? I stuck a pin in and didn't feel anything. And even then the bigger question remains, what defines your body? How can I tell where my body ends and world begins? I gotta make sure I get this locked down so I can get grounded in it. Wouldn't want to be fooled by the mind into thinking I'm grounded in the body just to find out I've laid roots down in the mind again!! Hmm yes, any definition of real world objects gets fuzzy when you start to look closely at it. Cells dropping off here, molecules being assimilated there... These definitions exist because we find them useful. Like when someone yells "Hey you, watch that BUS" one can say "Crikey, thanks mate!" rather than "What bus? I don't see a bus, I see the continuous entirety of creation. And what do you mean by 'you' anyway?" Splat. You can't tell where your body ends and the definition of it is (ahem) arbitrary. But you know all this, so I assume your post is intended to...what? Help me see or understand something you think I haven't seen? I take your tone to be jocular sarcasm and that you don't, in fact, want to work towards a definition of "your body" - noting also that you didn't answer my question (few do). So what then are you saying? Is bodily awareness important? Is "being present" useful? Or are you just going to negate anything I offer on the subject? I was just wondering if you had created another imaginary thing while defining your take on what Adjashanti (spelling??) meant when he said Enlightenment starts from the neck down. I didn't know if you were saying that the "body" is everything that manifests in this moment, or if you were saying that the body was that thing you think is housing your mind. Bodily awareness is and isn't important. It kinda depends on definition. If you define "body" as everything that manifests in the now, then awareness of it is essential. If you define it as that fleshy thing your mind thinks it sits in, then I would say no, forget about it as often as possible. Now in the fake "real" world, you of course have to take care of your body. I.E. eating, exercising and watching out for those buses. (Or you don't). But I don't think it is necessary to focus on breathing or whatever else in the body to see IT. Yes, for some this is their path to IT, but it wasn't the cause of them seeing IT. And for some minds it is a great practice, but ultimately everything you try fails. Grounding yourself in anything other than what is, will help keep alive this thought of self and separation. Lastly, I wasn't trying to negate anything you said. I simply like to clarify on statements made by folks as to point at it, if possible, with more clarity for them and other readers. Someone who reads a statement like being grounded in the body might create a mind concept of what the body is, and inadvertently cover up the truth of the body, even more with said concept. I infer this because I have "experience" in doing just that. That's all friend. I also want to say I am not a word smith. Pointing at it through written language isn't my strong suit. There will probably be holes found in my pointing in this response, which someone will undoubtedly come in and try to fill. But I do want you to know that I don't intend to create a feeling in you of me thinking I'm superior in anyway. Or that I'm commenting on what you have or have not seen. I'm simply trying to create more conversation that might lead to all of us "experiencing" IT more deeply. That's it brother. I don't know anything more than anyone else in this world does. And I'm pretty sure Adjashanti would say the same thing. Someone can correct me on that one if they know "more" about that statement. And about the sarcasm monkey that is perched on my back so often....... well I'll see if I can starve him off when replying to you. No promises though. I don't want to setup any expectations that might cause suffering for you.
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May 19, 2011 9:04:48 GMT -5
Post by Peter on May 19, 2011 9:04:48 GMT -5
I was just wondering if you had created another imaginary thing while defining your take on what Adjashanti (spelling??) meant when he said Enlightenment starts from the neck down. I didn't know if you were saying that the "body" is everything that manifests in this moment, or if you were saying that the body was that thing you think is housing your mind. If you're wondering about things and don't know what I'm saying then you're most welcome to just ask me about it directly, rather than beating about the definition bush But yes, I do see "keeping awareness in the body" as being an "in the moment" sort of thing. Although since you bring it up, I would also agree that the body houses the mind. I wouldn't expect to have any thoughts without the mind, and I'd be very surprised to find a mind without a body - glass jars not withstanding. For me, the sort of thing being discussed here is analogous to being at the cinema watching a movie. Normally (?) the mind is completely identified with the movie (which is similar to "living in the head" and being lost in a daydream, thinking of the past or planning the future) but sometimes - for example when someone drops their popcorn - we come back into the moment and re-realise that we're sitting in a cinema. You guys who are living completely "in the moment" - are you always completely aware that you're sitting in a cinema? Doesn't that ruin the movie going experience? Or is it horses for courses and you choose to put your awareness where it's wanted and become fully absorbed in the story? Thanks for your reply OHC - I found it helpful. P
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May 19, 2011 12:29:35 GMT -5
Post by mamza on May 19, 2011 12:29:35 GMT -5
I'm not one of those guys completely in the moment, but from what has been seen in the moment on this end I wouldn't imagine the movie getting ruined. Just 'cause you realize a movie is a movie doesn't mean it isn't fun to go see it, you know?
It's a lot of fun being in the moment (until it isn't, I guess), because there's always something interesting going on. Sometimes things can seem mundane because the mind hasn't got anything to feast on, and what's happening may not appeal to my 'personal' interests (not that there's anything personal about it). If fully immersed in the moment, however, those 'personal' interests are revealed for what they are and identification with them is lost.
I've had the time of my life just turning a door handle before; I've had a blast running like a moron down the street. When you lose that identification with the 'me', all of those restrictions on what is and isn't fun disappear as well.
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May 19, 2011 13:09:08 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 19, 2011 13:09:08 GMT -5
mamza you sound like a lot of fun!
i'd love to be a fly on the wall of your neighbors:
"hey hon, there he is again..."
"no...is he running?"
"nope he's just sitting in the middle of the street. looks like his eyes are closed."
"wait, here comes a car."
"now he's runnin!"
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May 19, 2011 13:44:14 GMT -5
Post by enigma on May 19, 2011 13:44:14 GMT -5
You can usually find Marie and I at the park skipping over speed bumps, teasing the 'ghetto goose' who clearly has some issues with me, or chatting with the squirrels. Fortunately, the neighbors don't come by much.....
I'm always standing on the bank watching, and it's usually a lot of fun. When it's not, it just is what it is and I don't get wet.
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May 19, 2011 14:04:04 GMT -5
Post by ivory on May 19, 2011 14:04:04 GMT -5
Enigma: "I'm always standing on the bank watching, and it's usually a lot of fun."
Just curious how easy that is for you. Also at what point did it start getting easier? I'm getting better at catching it (meditation morning and night helps with the training), but my mind is freaking relentless. The last couple days I find myself looking at what's going on up there and I think, "You gotta be kidding me! Why in the hell would I possibly be thinking about stupid shit like that". Makes me laugh sometimes.
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May 19, 2011 14:24:27 GMT -5
Post by mamza on May 19, 2011 14:24:27 GMT -5
Hahaha, Max, I'm usually a pretty boring guy to be around. Everything happens in bursts: the day will roll by slowly and I'll be doing very little and saying very little....then suddenly I'll get up and do something ridiculous for no reason at all.
I'm more the smartass-y, sarcastic type than anything.
I'm not Enigma, but... every time you catch it, it gets easier. Very minutely, but every cent adds up. Anything you enjoy doing that requires little thought is perfect--do it until it's not interesting and then do something else. Your mind will associate that activity with 'fun' and because you leave before 'not fun' appears, mind won't mind going back to it later on.
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May 19, 2011 14:29:17 GMT -5
Post by enigma on May 19, 2011 14:29:17 GMT -5
Well, it's not effortfull or nuthin, it's just where I'm watching from. There isn't a choice available to go unconscious. I don't know how I would go about that.
I do remember noticing the wacky thoughts that you mention, and it made me laugh too. I remember thinking 'What the....? This is insane!' It's that noticing of the insanity that is the becoming conscious and losing interest in the insanity. If there's no interest in it, the thoughts don't happen anymore, so the key is just noticing everything without doing anything about it. What you are is a noticer rather than a doer.
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May 19, 2011 15:16:55 GMT -5
Post by ivory on May 19, 2011 15:16:55 GMT -5
I'm not Enigma, but... every time you catch it, it gets easier. Very minutely, but every cent adds up. Anything you enjoy doing that requires little thought is perfect--do it until it's not interesting and then do something else. I find that consistency is really important as well. I'm with you on the fun thing, I have several brainless repetitive tasks that I like to do as a meditation. I do remember noticing the wacky thoughts that you mention, and it made me laugh too. I remember thinking 'What the....? This is insane!' It's that noticing of the insanity that is the becoming conscious and losing interest in the insanity. I remember you saying that we get stuck in thought because we have an interest in thought (or sumthin). But some of these thoughts just don't make any sense. What you say about thoughts dropping off because they're made conscious makes sense. I'm interested and curious to actually see that happening. But whether that actually goes noticed or not is another question. I can't remember my thoughts from 5 minutes ago (that's how useless thought is) much less 5 months ago.
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May 19, 2011 15:53:17 GMT -5
Post by enigma on May 19, 2011 15:53:17 GMT -5
Mind just kinda entertains itself with thoughts. It doesn't have to make sense or be meaningful. The fact that thinking is happening seems to prove that you exist and since you don't, that illusion has to be continually reinforced. I'm sure you know what that emptiness looks like to mind, and it ain't pretty, so self reinforcing thoughts are the most useful to mind (controlling something, being right about something, causing something to happen, looking good, and such) but if nothing is found, it will fill the gap with a song or a memory or an imaginary scenario or flying pigs or whatever.
There has to be a willingness to be empty, and before that can even happen, we have to notice how full we are of nonsense. At the very least, the quality of the thoughts will improve, and then mind starts cooperating with the clearing process rather than fighting it. (I know you're already 'there', just sayin)
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May 19, 2011 17:57:29 GMT -5
Post by Portto on May 19, 2011 17:57:29 GMT -5
There isn't a choice available to go unconscious. I don't know how I would go about that. What about deciding to take a nap? Anyway, if I know I'm unconscious, then I'm not really unconscious.
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May 19, 2011 19:32:41 GMT -5
Post by enigma on May 19, 2011 19:32:41 GMT -5
HA! Yeah, maybe that's why i don't know how I would go about that. Hehe.
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May 19, 2011 23:08:47 GMT -5
Post by ivory on May 19, 2011 23:08:47 GMT -5
I'm sure you know what that emptiness looks like to mind, and it ain't pretty Hmmm... not sure. There were a couple times where the mind was so silent I had forgotten that I existed. There seemed to be an awareness of being, but I had no knowledge of who or what I was. The mind kind of tripped out when it realized it had slipped like that. but if nothing is found, it will fill the gap with a song or a memory or an imaginary scenario or flying pigs or whatever. No flying pigs. But yesterday I did think about smiling dogs for a minute or so before I thought... WTF?!! There has to be a willingness to be empty, and before that can even happen, we have to notice how full we are of nonsense. At the very least, the quality of the thoughts will improve, and then mind starts cooperating with the clearing process rather than fighting it. (I know you're already 'there', just sayin) Well, smiling dogs certainly are nonsense, and I do realize that, so I must be well on my way.
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