jenpa
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Posts: 79
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Post by jenpa on Mar 5, 2011 22:01:22 GMT -5
Emptiness? :-)
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Post by enigma on Mar 5, 2011 22:13:33 GMT -5
There's a new member here to whom I've repeatedly said 'come empty to every relationship with everything.' Every time I open mouth, that's what comes out. Funny thing.
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jenpa
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by jenpa on Mar 6, 2011 12:00:38 GMT -5
It's a helpful instruction. I often feel that when I'm giving pointers, I'm only evoking, or clarifying certain ideas to myself.
I don't really Know anything.
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Post by therealfake on Mar 6, 2011 12:23:06 GMT -5
It's a helpful instruction. I often feel that when I'm giving pointers, I'm only evoking, or clarifying certain ideas to myself. I don't really Know anything. Even that you are here? Not the you that you think you are, but that which you really are... Don't you feel/know that you are here, now?
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jenpa
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Posts: 79
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Post by jenpa on Mar 6, 2011 13:46:47 GMT -5
Perhaps writing that "I don't really Know anything" was not the most genuine thing for me to convey. Yes, i Feel presence. i'm in attendance of something. But it's moving very fast. Its like I can't grasp it, yet. That's what I mean by not Knowing. But my hunch is, that's it. I've had some glimpses while sitting, and at other times into Nowness, which have been very encouraging. My consciousness is still very much merged with mind/body. But I feel that, that awareness alone is good news; its kind of like a tangled rope spread across the ground in front of me, instead of just pulling blindly, i can stand back and see where the knots are a bit more clearly now.
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Post by enigma on Mar 6, 2011 14:36:26 GMT -5
"But it's moving very fast. Its like I can't grasp it, yet."
This is an interesting comment. You see your presence as moving? How do you mean?
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jenpa
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Posts: 79
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Post by jenpa on Mar 6, 2011 15:15:58 GMT -5
Moving only in the sense that when i Feel my 'true' presence, it's usually a very fleeting experience (if you can call it an experience.)
My reflective mind jumps in, and it's gone.
Ha ha ... maybe i have it backwards and it's my mind that is so quick- "What about me me me?"
Because now that i think about it, whenever i do Feel presence or nowness 'It' feels like stillness, silence, and yet very alive with energy.
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Post by enigma on Mar 6, 2011 15:59:34 GMT -5
Yeah, I'll go with the still, silent, aliveness deally. I think you're right in that it's mind that's moving fast. Hehe.
This presence is where you are looking from, whatever it is you're looking at, like fast moving stuff and experiences and feelings and attributes. This presence is prior to all of that, prior to everything that's happening, and isn't, itself, happening at all. It does, however, have to be here before anything at all can happen, which surely is obvious, so it's impossible to miss. There's actually no need to look for it. You can't possibly get away from it. Hehe.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 6, 2011 16:15:01 GMT -5
Ummmmm. I don't relate to those words very well. When there is true presence, there is no separate observer of it. I suppose I use the word "presence" somewhat synonymously with "being." If someone asked me what presence is like, I would have to say that presence is not like anything. What I would call "presence" could also be called "isness," and it has no qualities because it is non-dual. No words or concepts seem applicable.
IOW, to be present is to be absent. If someone "feels presence," what he or she is feeling can't be presence. There can BE presence, but no describable experience of it.
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jenpa
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Posts: 79
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Post by jenpa on Mar 6, 2011 17:08:23 GMT -5
ZD, can it be that when ones consciousness is still merged with mind/body, or in dual consciousness, and when 'non-dual gaps' occur, one can return, if you will, with a sense or feeling of the non dual's attributes in comparison to the dual?
You are saying that there are no attributes to report, because it's not like anything else — right?
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Post by zendancer on Mar 6, 2011 17:28:26 GMT -5
Well, the non-dual doesn't really have attributes, but "silent aliveness" may be as close as we can point to it using language.
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jenpa
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Posts: 79
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Post by jenpa on Mar 6, 2011 17:30:47 GMT -5
That's good news! Thank you.
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Post by enigma on Mar 6, 2011 17:41:14 GMT -5
Thank you e. This rings true from an experience i had during a sitting practice when i focused on the 'witness'. Usually i focus on breath and observe thoughts come and go. With my attention on the 'witness' I became noticeably detached from my thoughts without any effort, it seemed. It was as if my thoughts and all phenomena arising were only passing through as i the 'witness' silently watched. i didn't get hooked by anything, that is, until my mind began reflecting on the experience. Then i was back in mind. But, in the background during the experience was also the Feeling that this presence or 'witness' had always been Here/Now. There was some kind of recognition. i let go of that, too. (sort of lol). Since that experience, whenever i remember events from childhood or whatever, i get the feeling of that presence, or witness being there/here, too. Having written all of that, I also think its best not to think too much about it, and i'm still not certain that is was not my good ol' imagination of mind butting in. It's just more mind stuff to let go of anyway. I agree that you don't want to cling to any experience or feeling, but perhaps this subtle sense of recognition is neither. You DO know this Self, (though not as any attribute) because you ARE that Self. That recognition of the exact same Self looking through the child's eyes is quite valuable, from my perspective. The body and mind have clearly changed. Is there also a sense that the witness has not changed at all?
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jenpa
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by jenpa on Mar 6, 2011 17:53:24 GMT -5
@ e. Precisely, there is a sense that this witness has not changed at all.
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Post by enigma on Mar 6, 2011 18:07:54 GMT -5
You are saying that there are no attributes to report, because it's not like anything else — right? If I may add to Zen's comments...This is a bit of a concession to mind, but don't panic. (hehe) It's not that the attributes can't be compared to anything known, it's more that there are no attributes at all to be found. We're talking about the absence of any attribute or quality, and while this means nothing to mind in search of 'mind objects', it is actually an astounding absence. Again, all thoughts, feelings, qualities, attributes, anything that can be perceived, arises and falls in Your presence, and so you must be prior to all appearances, and therefore devoid of appearance. You don't appear because you are not an object that moves in front of you but rather the subject that is aware of this movement. For the subject to recognize his subjectivity, no objective quality is needed. When you notice 'Hey, I exist', you have not discovered an attribute, and yet there is a recognition of something that is Self evident. Closer than your breath, prior to your next thought, more intimate than what you know of your own heart, alive, awake, immediate, and of course, none of that.
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