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Post by ivory on Apr 3, 2011 11:30:01 GMT -5
Max, I hear what you're saying. I'd highly recommend a book called mindfulness in plain English. It will answer all your questions. I was able to download it for free, but if you can't find it, pm me your email and ill send it to you. Great book on meditation/mindfulness. thanks ivory, i'm currently reading it on split screen while my daughter watches an old shirley temple movie on hulu. hehe. It is said that one may attain enlightenment at any moment if the mind is kept in a state of meditative readiness. The tiniest, most ordinary perception can be the stimulus: a view of the moon, the cry of a bird, the sound of the wind in the trees. it's not so important what is perceived as the way in which you attend to that perception. The state of open readiness is essential. It could happen to you right now if you are ready. The tactile sensation of this book in your fingers could be the cue. The sound of these words in your head might be enough. You could attain enlightenment right now, if you are ready. open readiness i wonder if that coincides with enigma's effortlessness? and with that question, the open readiness is obscured! I think that effortlessness has to do with a lack of control. In other words, not trying to be present or attend the actual. That sort of effortlessneas happens when there's nothing left to seek (the self has been dissolved or completely seen through), or the futility of seeking has been fully realized. There's a very relevant section in that book about balanced concentration and mindfulness. Attending the actual is like full concentration, which to me feels very unnatural and forced (not graceful). I notice that when I'm listening or watching with 100 percent my breathing constricts and my muscles tighten up. That is not openness I've been contemplating this recently and tried to find some resources. Here's what adya has to day. www.adyashanti.org/index.php?file=listenonlineCheck out the clips "the formless fabric of reality" and "beyond all ideas"
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Post by michaelsees on Apr 3, 2011 11:48:01 GMT -5
Are you sure that this I-AM-ness isn't just another perceived object? I'm totally open to this being some super-duper refined concept, yeah. Getting faked out again by the mind, could happen. I don't think so though. It seems prior to concepts. In fact, I just don't see how there could be prior to this. Well the I am ness is also a concept. And of course their is a prior to this it's called the Absolute, God, the real you, whatever. How do you know this it's simple next time you have this sense of I am ness see who is seeing this. The seer that is seeing this I amness is what? IT's best not to get stuck with all this crap as the mind and words to explain will go on forever and you will never ever get close enough using words. So best to just stop. Michael
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Post by enigma on Apr 3, 2011 12:40:29 GMT -5
This 'I amness' deally bopper isn't a task to be performed. Maybe we could call it a perspective, like sitting on the roof instead of standing at the front door. It doesn't require more effort to look from the roof than from the door, and yet the scenery is different. Marie calls it 'observer mode' and she falls into it spontaneously when she 'looks' intuitively, and out of it when she tries to look AT it, which changes the perspective from which one is looking (like climbing down from the roof to see what the observer perspective on the roof looks like). Another way of talking about it is an expansion beyond the constriction of meness. In any event, it's effortless and doesn't interfere with any doingness. looking AT it, rather than looking as it...of course there's no it, but the 'perspective' -- seems like a constant toggling between the two, or just autopilot or sleep... Mind will keep coming back to check on progress and see if everything is going okay. Hehe.
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Post by enigma on Apr 3, 2011 12:54:42 GMT -5
thanks ivory, i'm currently reading it on split screen while my daughter watches an old shirley temple movie on hulu. hehe. It is said that one may attain enlightenment at any moment if the mind is kept in a state of meditative readiness. The tiniest, most ordinary perception can be the stimulus: a view of the moon, the cry of a bird, the sound of the wind in the trees. it's not so important what is perceived as the way in which you attend to that perception. The state of open readiness is essential. It could happen to you right now if you are ready. The tactile sensation of this book in your fingers could be the cue. The sound of these words in your head might be enough. You could attain enlightenment right now, if you are ready. open readiness i wonder if that coincides with enigma's effortlessness? and with that question, the open readiness is obscured! I think that effortlessness has to do with a lack of control. In other words, not trying to be present or attend the actual. That sort of effortlessneas happens when there's nothing left to seek (the self has been dissolved or completely seen through), or the futility of seeking has been fully realized. There's a very relevant section in that book about balanced concentration and mindfulness. Attending the actual is like full concentration, which to me feels very unnatural and forced (not graceful). I notice that when I'm listening or watching with 100 percent my breathing constricts and my muscles tighten up. That is not openness I've been contemplating this recently and tried to find some resources. Here's what adya has to day. www.adyashanti.org/index.php?file=listenonlineCheck out the clips "the formless fabric of reality" and "beyond all ideas" Yes, "A backwards step". Effortlessness isn't the attainment of some kind of focus, but the absence of the focusing effort that is likely always going on. The absence of effort doesn't happen through any kind of effort, but rather through, as Adya says, noticing what the effort is. You're a noticing thang rather than a doing thang. That's what Awareness is.
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Post by michaelsees on Apr 3, 2011 13:58:39 GMT -5
Yes, "A backwards step". Effortlessness isn't the attainment of some kind of focus, but the absence of the focusing effort that is likely always going on. The absence of effort doesn't happen through any kind of effort, but rather through, as Adya says, noticing what the effort is. You're a noticing thang rather than a doing thang. That's what Awareness is. I guess you could say that though it's very misleading I feel. Seeing the actual or what is does not really mean no effort as if you just sit and do nothing. One needs to be careful of words here. I know what E is saying because I know E. Here's my way of seeing the actual I called it the tao or the way. How to explain it is a easing off sense of things but only a easing off from a predetermine place. The best way I can describe this would be archery or long distance shooting. I choose shooting as that is what I am most familiar with. I have trained myself to shoot a target at 1000 yards. I have made shots as far a 1 mile before. At this range a 2 gal can is not visible to the naked eye. You need a at least a 30 power scope to see your target. Everything effects you at this range your own breathing, your heartbeat and of course any wind etc. When you are ready and all is lined up , you are very focused on the target, much more on your breathing and your heartbeat is felt there comes a place where you gently ease off everything and you are in the zone of the sweetspot as you squeeze off your shot. You know when you have it just right not be looking after you shot but by the way it felt. This same sweetspot I use to see the actual. It's a bio-memory. I can go outside and find a place to sit maybe 30 yards from a tree. At first I use a technique I have developed. A special kind of centering. I pick a spot on the tree it could be a big knot or a place where a large branch has broken off. I then concentrate on that spot to the point where all I see is the spot. I then allow myself to relax my eyes and very slowly ease off. This easing off creates a window to the actual what is then seen is for myself much more of a sense, a felt-ness of no separation. There are times when this will carry you off much like a mind expanding drug but only deeper. You will go as far as you want and the only thing that will stop you is any fear. The moment fear comes in the party over. For myself it's always been to focus first a extreme focus which takes much effort and then a easing off. So at the end it would be correct to say taking a back step but only after all was put in place. Michael
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Post by mamza on Apr 3, 2011 17:34:06 GMT -5
I don't think he's trying to say no effort is involved. He's just saying that the effort isn't the focal point. There is an effort to figure out what it is you are, but it's the noticing of what is putting forth that effort that 'pays off', not the effort itself.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2011 20:21:26 GMT -5
thanks ivory there're some great nuggets in those: if you want to become less aware right now, try becoming more aware... awareness practices leading to spiritual constipation -- ha! ....they perpetuate the illusion that awareness is something to be enhanced...another thing 'to do'...exacerbates the activity of the self; to become more....gives the self a false sense of progress.... the awareness is already fully present ...egos bond in pain...egoic consciousness is held together through a certain sort of conflict and mutual suffering... ...if we think of ourselves as superior, we haven't really awakened...or our egos have grabbed the awakening itself and we are just becoming awakened egos, which is worse than not being awake. why is the world pretending to be asleep? +++ great stuff!
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Post by therealfake on Apr 3, 2011 20:58:02 GMT -5
thanks ivory there're some great nuggets in those: if you want to become less aware right now, try becoming more aware... awareness practices leading to spiritual constipation -- ha! ....they perpetuate the illusion that awareness is something to be enhanced...another thing 'to do'...exacerbates the activity of the self; to become more....gives the self a false sense of progress.... the awareness is already fully present ...egos bond in pain...egoic consciousness is held together through a certain sort of conflict and mutual suffering... ...if we think of ourselves as superior, we haven't really awakened...or our egos have grabbed the awakening itself and we are just becoming awakened egos, which is worse than not being awake. why is the world pretending to be asleep? +++ great stuff! The world isn't asleep max, that which is self centered is asleep. The original separating idea was about a 'self', a me, so that is our focus... It's all about the liberation of the 'me'. The illusion will never end until we make it about our brother and sister... When freedom and liberation for them, becomes the most important thing in the world, then and only then will we become free...
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Post by ivory on Apr 3, 2011 21:13:48 GMT -5
Glad you like the clips max.
TRF, I gotta disagree with you there. How can you liberate or free somebody else when you yourself aren't free? Compassion isn't a necessity to awaken. I'm not saying its a bad thing, but you can't know somebody else until you know yourself. Love, compassion, and understanding are a natural byproduct when one knows himself because he knows there is no separation. If one believes that compassion needs to be cultivated to be free, then I think that idea needs to be examined.
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Post by ivory on Apr 3, 2011 21:18:58 GMT -5
Correction, one will never truly know his or her self. Hopefully you get the gist of that last post anyways
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Post by ladyhawk on Apr 3, 2011 21:46:58 GMT -5
Now I'm confused, I thought we were discussing subjectivity. Where did dreams come from..lol When I use the analogy of drinking a cup of coffee, I'm not making assumptions about what someone else might be thinking, I have shared a coffee with someone and they said it was't to their taste, whereas it was to mine. Subjectivity, is from our own unique perspectives.
And yes, I am aware that dream symbols, people are aspects of the self as well as symbolic manifestation of thought and feelings. Maybe I over simplified it. But for me again, why make something complicated, when its really quite simple. overstating something is a manifestation of the ego, rather then articulating the experience.
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Post by therealfake on Apr 3, 2011 22:15:54 GMT -5
Glad you like the clips max. TRF, I gotta disagree with you there. How can you liberate or free somebody else when you yourself aren't free? Compassion isn't a necessity to awaken. I'm not saying its a bad thing, but you can't know somebody else until you know yourself. Love, compassion, and understanding are a natural byproduct when one knows himself because he knows there is no separation. If one believes that compassion needs to be cultivated to be free, then I think that idea needs to be examined. How can you be free when you believe there is another that needs compassion and love? That thought perpetuates the separation that you have already fallen for. You can't find God for yourself and deny it in your brother. True salvation can only be found through your brother and sister, for they are not separate from you...
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Post by ivory on Apr 3, 2011 23:09:09 GMT -5
You said, "The illusion will never end until we make it about our brother and sister...When freedom and liberation for them, becomes the most important thing in the world, then and only then will we become free..."
I don't mean to be argumentative but you seem to contradict yourself here, "How can you be free when you believe there is another that needs compassion and love?"
I'm in agreement with the second point, however. Anyway, I'm not sure what you mean by free. Do you mean enlightenment? If ones enlightenment depends on anothers freedom, youre screwed. You can't guarantee or be responsible for anothers freedom.
I'm all for helping and loving others, but feeling that one needs to free others is bondage (assuming there's attachment to the result of freedom). In other words, act but don't reflect on the fruit of the act. If one feels compelled to help others I think that's great and very admirable.
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Post by enigma on Apr 3, 2011 23:49:26 GMT -5
Now I'm confused, I thought we were discussing subjectivity. Where did dreams come from..lol You don't understand what your personal dreams have to do with subjectivity? I didn't mean to imply you did. I'm saying your assumption is that there is a "someone else". You didn't oversimplify it, you overcomplicated it by drawing conclusions that you don't know to be true, creating objects to define you as the subject. Yes, it's a manifestation of the ego.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2011 6:41:13 GMT -5
why is the world pretending to be asleep? +++ great stuff! The world isn't asleep max, that which is self centered is asleep. The original separating idea was about a 'self', a me, so that is our focus... It's all about the liberation of the 'me'. The illusion will never end until we make it about our brother and sister... When freedom and liberation for them, becomes the most important thing in the world, then and only then will we become free... hi trf, well i was sort of transcribing something Adya was saying. i say sort of because it's not a totally accurate transcription, and it's filtered through what this here thing thought was worth transcribing at the moment, and it's all out of context... when A asked 'why is the world pretending to be asleep' he was pointing to a contradiction...that actually awareness is already fully present (and everpresent). so there is an illusion or a pretending to be asleep. that was more the point. your comment reminds me of something i heard Tony Parsons say (i think) ....again transcribing from a memory (!) : that the belief in self is a symptom of the sense of separation. i thought that was a good distinction...especially in light of my whole experience at ruthless truth. that sense of separation can remain even if the self is seen as not existing.
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