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Post by mansuit on Feb 23, 2011 16:12:01 GMT -5
If there is any "prescription" that a non-doer can "do", anything that can bridge that intellectual gap with the experiential, it just seems like this is it. It seems to be the simple, transparent thread that runs throughout any teaching of non-duality. All the intellectual rumination, and trying to understand, or explain, seems to collapse. More knowing is just not going to cut it. Isn't this looking, this gathering of attention away from reflection, analyzing, contemplation - isn't it jumping off the cliff right into the unknowing?
I've been working with it, and it's hard as H E double hockey sticks. It really, to me, seems virtually impossible. But I want to know more about it. Experiences with it, traps, tricks, formal sitting and "noticing" and how movement in daily life works.
What I have noticed, even in the short moments, again and again, that I've allowed myself, is that there is no result in it. I can't find it anywhere to look for a result- I KNOW that there is "no-self" in the attending what is actual, but I'm not attending the actual to "discover that there is no-self". I'm just hanging out with what is...
Fingers typing, office conversation, phone ringing, whispering, intercom blaring.
Its Stillness. But ya know, without the soft yoga music. : )
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Post by sharon on Feb 23, 2011 16:29:20 GMT -5
The actual will always bring attention back to it ... It's cues are alive ... the universe is pure intelligence ... follow at your most comfortable pace. It isn't in a rush.
Read the direct language in front of you ~ see what you feed yourself with every day. The pure has the sweetest of tastes.
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frustratedwanter
Full Member
Apparently I posted something in 2020. I don't think that's what I'm looking for but what ta hey?
Posts: 150
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Post by frustratedwanter on Feb 23, 2011 18:12:27 GMT -5
Walking along, "just looking". Then I see this other one, looking for the one that is "just looking". Looking for some sort of benefit to "just looking". It occurs to me that I'm missing the boat. "Just looking" is what's happening when there is nothing else happening. I hear a lot of talk about "developing the witness attitude" or "resting in the witness" or some such. The more I look the more it seems like "the witness" is the one thing that doesn't belong there. In a Oneness anyway. Suppose there couldn't be a duality without it.
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Post by mamza on Feb 23, 2011 19:12:48 GMT -5
The more 'you' have at it, the easier it happens. I'm at the point where I start focusing on this or that to stop the mental nonsense for longer than I'm used to focusing. It gives me a headache after a while. Or maybe I just have a headache and I'm using it as an excuse to not look. LOL.
Try paying attention to more and more things at the same time, like your feet on the floor, hands doing whatever, vision focused on whatever, etc (just make sure it's direct, not a thought). Seems to me that the more sensation you allow to happen at once, the less thoughts pop up and the longer attention stays on the actual. Key word: seems. I feel this way, I think this to be the case, but for all I know it's a load of poop. Take it with salt.
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frustratedwanter
Full Member
Apparently I posted something in 2020. I don't think that's what I'm looking for but what ta hey?
Posts: 150
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Post by frustratedwanter on Feb 23, 2011 22:44:16 GMT -5
Isn't all this fun? For me a constant wondering: Is it this? Is it that? I can withdraw into something, seems like a cognitive center of the brain. A central point which looks out. I think "This central point which is looking out must be what I am". I should dwell there! But I can't really find that central point which is looking out. I ask: "What knows this thought?" I find no knower. Thought knows itself. So I think that the central point is the illusion. I expand into awareness of all sensations. There seems to be a center aware of that. Huh! Isn't this fun? Sometimes I think I've found what I'm looking for. But there's nothing there to know about it. The absence of the seeker is the finding of the sought. But that is nothing. I as the seeker can never be happy with that. Huh! I have experienced my disappearance. Wasn't there to see it. I did though. Apparently I wasn't satisfied with it. Saw an Adyashanti vid where he talks about core issues. Seeing people hauled off in straight jackets. Guess I have some worry about it. Don't really think I'm crazy. Compared to what? If a sane person enters an insane asylum they will all think he's crazy. Compared to what? Isn't this fun? To my addled brain this actually makes sense. Have to ask. Does all this sound like insanity? (I'm really not worried) Or something close to reality?
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Post by zendancer on Feb 24, 2011 0:30:19 GMT -5
Very close to reality!
Personally, I cried today in remembrance of a fruit vendor, a simple man who burned himself to death in Tunisia over a set of scales, a stupid set of scales that some bureaucrat stole from him in want of a payoff. The vendor went to the office of the government to get his scales back. He just wanted his scales so that he could sell his fruit, and he didn't want to pay the payoff. They ignored him, of course, so he went home and got a can of gasoline. He went back to the office of the government, sat down in the middle of the street in front of the office, poured the gasoline over himself, and set himself on fire. He died a few days later, and his fiery death set the world on fire. A million people, heart broken, came into the streets after hearing about the man's desperate act. Tunisia, Egypt, and now Libya. One simple fruit vendor was the spark that started it all.
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Post by wolfgang on Feb 24, 2011 0:50:14 GMT -5
maybe attending the actual is not being involved with rejecting or desiring.
that rejecting or desiring is not actual stuff. and this would include desiring to attend to the actual. which is to say, expecting the technique of "attending to the actual" will produce an effect of better for a "you". oh my.
but if not involved with rejecting or desiring, then the self just isn't there. or if involved with rejecting or desiring, then that will produce a sense of self. now, can the self stop the rejecting or desiring? no. it is a product of being involved w/ rejecting or desiring. so I only wonder that this is a seeing of the actual, of what is true when the sense of self shows up - just seeing it as coming from objecting to what is or wishing for something different. Seeing it as false, might make the desires or rejections not matter. So, see the light!
Not sure it means you try (trying is more desiring, btw) to not reject or desire, if that shows up just let it be - or see the self show up in response and see that as not actual so then it can be seen to not actually be, and attending to what really is actual carries on without trying.
lol.
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Post by wolfgang on Feb 24, 2011 1:08:28 GMT -5
Very close to reality! Personally, I cried all day in remembrance of a fruit vendor, a simple man who burned himself to death in Tunisia over a set of scales, a stupid set of scales that some ignorant bureaucrat stole from him in want of a payoff. The vendor went to the office of the government to get his scales back. He just wanted his scales so that he could sell his fruit, and he didn't want to pay the payoff. They ignored him, of course, so he went home and got a can of gasoline. He went back to the office of the government, sat down in the middle of the street in front of the office, poured the gasoline over himself, and set himself on fire. He died a few days later, and his death set the world on fire. Tunisia, Egypt, and now Libya. One simple man, and I can't stop crying about it. The truth cannot be imagined. what kind of crying is this? are you suffering? are you saying this is an example of attending to the actual? do you feel more open for it? is it a good hurt you have going? or do you wish this wasn't happening? are you also angry and sad? mortified? desiring a solution to fix problems like this? thinking, if only they knew the truth this wouldn't happen and then I wouldn't have to be going through this? looking at the news and saying, the world is messed up and has wrong things going on?
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Post by zendancer on Feb 24, 2011 1:17:59 GMT -5
maybe attending the actual is not being involved with rejecting or desiring. that rejecting or desiring is not actual stuff. and this would include desiring to attend to the actual. which is to say, expecting the technique of "attending to the actual" will produce an effect of better for a "you". oh my. but if not involved with rejecting or desiring, then the self just isn't there. or if involved with rejecting or desiring, then that will produce a sense of self. now, can the self stop the rejecting or desiring? no. it is a product of being involved w/ rejecting or desiring. so I only wonder that this is a seeing of the actual, of what is true when the sense of self shows up - just seeing it as coming from objecting to what is or wishing for something different. Seeing it as false, might make the desires or rejections not matter. So, see the light! Not sure it means you try (trying is more desiring, btw) to not reject or desire, if that shows up just let it be - or see the self show up in response and see that as not actual so then it can be seen to not actually be, and attending to what really is actual carries on without trying. lol. Correct. When we first attend the actual, we do so under the illusion that we will get something as a result of our attending. Eventually, we attend the actual for no reason at all, because what we are calls us to Itself. When we attend the actual without any thought of attainment, attainment may happen, but if it happens, it happens to no one.
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Post by zendancer on Feb 24, 2011 1:31:32 GMT -5
Very close to reality! Personally, I cried all day in remembrance of a fruit vendor, a simple man who burned himself to death in Tunisia over a set of scales, a stupid set of scales that some ignorant bureaucrat stole from him in want of a payoff. The vendor went to the office of the government to get his scales back. He just wanted his scales so that he could sell his fruit, and he didn't want to pay the payoff. They ignored him, of course, so he went home and got a can of gasoline. He went back to the office of the government, sat down in the middle of the street in front of the office, poured the gasoline over himself, and set himself on fire. He died a few days later, and his death set the world on fire. Tunisia, Egypt, and now Libya. One simple man, and I can't stop crying about it. The truth cannot be imagined. what kind of crying is this? are you suffering? are you saying this is an example of attending to the actual? do you feel more open for it? is it a good hurt you have going? or do you wish this wasn't happening? are you also angry and sad? mortified? desiring a solution to fix problems like this? thinking, if only they knew the truth this wouldn't happen and then I wouldn't have to be going through this? looking at the news and saying, the world is messed up and has wrong things going on? Wolfgang: None of the above. This crying is an expression of pure love. No suffering is involved. No thoughts are involved. The English language has no word for this. The Japanese have a suitable word--"yugen"--which means, roughly, "existential pathos." If I ever get to visit Tunisia, I will go see his mother. No words will be necessary.
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Post by sharon on Feb 24, 2011 3:55:09 GMT -5
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Post by ivory on Feb 24, 2011 14:11:51 GMT -5
ZD, I also found what you said in the RT thread very interesting. Most seekers can't immediately accept that the truth can be this simple, so they ... try to understand what's going on with the mind. Are you saying that you did not have any understanding of the mind during your search? And if you did, did you not find that fruitful? Wolfgang: You wrote, "What would happen if I attended to the actual intellectual thoughts spewing about in my field of what is? My thoughts precisely. In buddhism they include mind as one of the six senses. So there is an awareness of touch, smell, sound, sight, taste, and mind. So being aware of the mind is not the same as being lost in the mind. I don't see that any different than being aware of the tree outside. Oh, that's fine, too, but it's much harder to do that. Most people get carried away by their thoughts and cannot remain detached. You can experiment with watching thoughts and see what happens for you. I think you'll find that focusing on what can be seen or heard is easier than focusing on thoughts, but give it a try. I believe in the Gospel of Thomas Christ is quoted as saying, "Be as a passer-by." We might call this "staying in the train station" while watching thought trains come and go. But if one is curious about the workings of the mind then it is quite easy. Just my opinion of course. I find it much more interesting to watch the workings of the mind that it is to count breaths or be fully aware of physical activity. There was one thing that Steven Norquist said that really stuck with me, he said, "If I could teach the world a lesson it would be, no matter what you experience always remind yourself, “There is no experiencer, there is no observer.” If you do this long enough and often enough you will one day know what's going on." What I found is by watching the mind, it becomes quite clear that there is no you. This is a constant reminder. ZD, did you not have some insight or experience (for lack of a better word) of no-self prior to your awakening? Glad you started a new thread for this Mamza. I think it helps to start a new thread when a topic starts going off in 10 different directions.
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Post by abideinself on Feb 24, 2011 14:19:37 GMT -5
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Post by question on Feb 24, 2011 15:21:33 GMT -5
So being aware of the mind is not the same as being lost in the mind. What's really starting to bug me is that it's always said that someone is lost in the mind. Who is this someone who is lost?
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Post by question on Feb 24, 2011 15:21:52 GMT -5
Very close to reality! Personally, I cried today in remembrance of a fruit vendor, a simple man who burned himself to death in Tunisia over a set of scales, a stupid set of scales that some bureaucrat stole from him in want of a payoff. The vendor went to the office of the government to get his scales back. He just wanted his scales so that he could sell his fruit, and he didn't want to pay the payoff. They ignored him, of course, so he went home and got a can of gasoline. He went back to the office of the government, sat down in the middle of the street in front of the office, poured the gasoline over himself, and set himself on fire. He died a few days later, and his fiery death set the world on fire. A million people, heart broken, came into the streets after hearing about the man's desperate act. Tunisia, Egypt, and now Libya. One simple fruit vendor was the spark that started it all. That's a serious distortion of the story. There are plenty of souces around where the reason for the self-immolation is reported adequately.
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