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Post by karen on Apr 2, 2011 13:39:08 GMT -5
I try to focus on the subjectivity of the moment - and that there is nothing but subjectivity. how? can you describe that a little more? the concept of subjectivity is a little bit abstract for this head. does. not. compute. Hi Max, To describe it: I can be feeling the keyboard type right now, and I feel the keys and see how I think of the keys as objects - I then see how I am the subject - not in concept but in am-ness. I just look at that.
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Post by ladyhawk on Apr 2, 2011 14:12:47 GMT -5
Subjectivity to me, is the unique experience of each individual. Our own personal perception. We both share a cup of coffee. For me it may be too strong, for you just right. For me it may be too sweet, for you not sweet enough. Its still a cup of coffee, but our experience of it is different.
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Post by question on Apr 2, 2011 15:06:58 GMT -5
Hi Max, To describe it: I can be feeling the keyboard type right now, and I feel the keys and see how I think of the keys as objects - I then see how I am the subject - not in concept but in am-ness. I just look at that. Are you sure that this I-AM-ness isn't just another perceived object?
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Post by enigma on Apr 2, 2011 15:12:40 GMT -5
There's just experiencing. Unique, individuals, personal perception, bothness, sharing and different experiences are the objectification of that subjective experience; the assumption that sharing of different experiences is happening between persons. You don't actually know this to be true.
All of this stuff occurs in your nightly dreams, and the same conclusions are drawn, and yet there's just you experiencing yourself. The dragon in your dream is the subject appearing as an apparent object; an 'other' with whom you can 'share' experience (Very carefully, of course. Hehe.). There are no actual objects to be found in your dream, and so all conclusions about objects are false.
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Post by vacant on Apr 2, 2011 18:13:52 GMT -5
Karen I recognize what you describe except that I cannot honestly say (yet?) that I am this subject, the awareness. I can only say that there is the hearing of sounds, the seeing of visuals, the consciousness of breathing. True, there is some vague feeling that it might be somewhere in the region where I is, but I’m in no hurry to make such association at the minute. Please let me know if you see something I’m missing.
Ladyhawk Was just wondering how to comment on your post, wisely—hehe!— but E just did this much better than I could bring myself to.
Question I do not dare reply for Karen, but if you were asking me the same thing I would say that when you really enquire who/what is doing the seeing/hearing/thinking etc there is no end to how deep you enquire, while objects tend to show there finite nature. Any perceived object appears to “…….” no bottom to reach. And I would say that is what is referred to.
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Post by michaelsees on Apr 2, 2011 18:29:31 GMT -5
There's just experiencing. Unique, individuals, personal perception, bothness, sharing and different experiences are the objectification of that subjective experience; the assumption that sharing of different experiences is happening between persons. You don't actually know this to be true. All of this stuff occurs in your nightly dreams, and the same conclusions are drawn, and yet there's just you experiencing yourself. The dragon in your dream is the subject appearing as an apparent object; an 'other' with whom you can 'share' experience (Very carefully, of course. Hehe.). There are no actual objects to be found in your dream, and so all conclusions about objects are false. Well both just being dreams is a very simplistic answer. So what are you doing when you are not in either of the dreams? Michael
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Post by enigma on Apr 2, 2011 20:44:15 GMT -5
I'm usually sitting on my cloud sipping a Pina Colada.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2011 22:02:33 GMT -5
how? can you describe that a little more? the concept of subjectivity is a little bit abstract for this head. does. not. compute. Hi Max, To describe it: I can be feeling the keyboard type right now, and I feel the keys and see how I think of the keys as objects - I then see how I am the subject - not in concept but in am-ness. I just look at that. where is the end of looking at amness looking at amness looking at amness.....? okay answered that. but in the day to day, for example playing a game of 'poopadoodle' with my son, looking at amness seems like a big distraction from just being present with the variety of new rules that spontaneously form, and other fun stuff. looking at amness, seeing the subjectivity in every moment... is that for nonsocial moments? moments of contemplation only? i think vacant's pointer to infinite depth, emptiness i guess (?), is what i 'see' when looking at that amness. but i find it difficult to both do that and be creatively in the moment. not a very good multitasker in general.
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Post by ivory on Apr 2, 2011 22:21:33 GMT -5
Max, I hear what you're saying. I'd highly recommend a book called mindfulness in plain English. It will answer all your questions. I was able to download it for free, but if you can't find it, pm me your email and ill send it to you.
Great book on meditation/mindfulness.
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Post by enigma on Apr 2, 2011 23:47:03 GMT -5
This 'I amness' deally bopper isn't a task to be performed. Maybe we could call it a perspective, like sitting on the roof instead of standing at the front door. It doesn't require more effort to look from the roof than from the door, and yet the scenery is different.
Marie calls it 'observer mode' and she falls into it spontaneously when she 'looks' intuitively, and out of it when she tries to look AT it, which changes the perspective from which one is looking (like climbing down from the roof to see what the observer perspective on the roof looks like). Another way of talking about it is an expansion beyond the constriction of meness.
In any event, it's effortless and doesn't interfere with any doingness.
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Post by Portto on Apr 3, 2011 8:11:07 GMT -5
I'm usually sitting on my cloud sipping a Pina Colada. Save one for me. I'm coming!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2011 10:24:28 GMT -5
Max, I hear what you're saying. I'd highly recommend a book called mindfulness in plain English. It will answer all your questions. I was able to download it for free, but if you can't find it, pm me your email and ill send it to you. Great book on meditation/mindfulness. thanks ivory, i'm currently reading it on split screen while my daughter watches an old shirley temple movie on hulu. hehe. It is said that one may attain enlightenment at any moment if the mind is kept in a state of meditative readiness. The tiniest, most ordinary perception can be the stimulus: a view of the moon, the cry of a bird, the sound of the wind in the trees. it's not so important what is perceived as the way in which you attend to that perception. The state of open readiness is essential. It could happen to you right now if you are ready. The tactile sensation of this book in your fingers could be the cue. The sound of these words in your head might be enough. You could attain enlightenment right now, if you are ready. open readiness i wonder if that coincides with enigma's effortlessness? and with that question, the open readiness is obscured!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2011 10:29:44 GMT -5
This 'I amness' deally bopper isn't a task to be performed. Maybe we could call it a perspective, like sitting on the roof instead of standing at the front door. It doesn't require more effort to look from the roof than from the door, and yet the scenery is different. Marie calls it 'observer mode' and she falls into it spontaneously when she 'looks' intuitively, and out of it when she tries to look AT it, which changes the perspective from which one is looking (like climbing down from the roof to see what the observer perspective on the roof looks like). Another way of talking about it is an expansion beyond the constriction of meness. In any event, it's effortless and doesn't interfere with any doingness. looking AT it, rather than looking as it...of course there's no it, but the 'perspective' -- seems like a constant toggling between the two, or just autopilot or sleep...
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Post by karen on Apr 3, 2011 10:44:11 GMT -5
where is the end of looking at amness looking at amness looking at amness.....? okay answered that. Right! Just keep it up over and over. It's like trying to play king of the hill on a slippery smooth parabolic rock. Keep it up. Try it for two weeks. See what happens. but in the day to day, for example playing a game of 'poopadoodle' with my son, looking at amness seems like a big distraction from just being present with the variety of new rules that spontaneously form, and other fun stuff. looking at amness, seeing the subjectivity in every moment... is that for nonsocial moments? moments of contemplation only? i think vacant's pointer to infinite depth, emptiness i guess (?), is what i 'see' when looking at that amness. but i find it difficult to both do that and be creatively in the moment. not a very good multitasker in general. This angle I describe might not be your cup of tea.
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Post by karen on Apr 3, 2011 10:48:08 GMT -5
Hi Max, To describe it: I can be feeling the keyboard type right now, and I feel the keys and see how I think of the keys as objects - I then see how I am the subject - not in concept but in am-ness. I just look at that. Are you sure that this I-AM-ness isn't just another perceived object? I'm totally open to this being some super-duper refined concept, yeah. Getting faked out again by the mind, could happen. I don't think so though. It seems prior to concepts. In fact, I just don't see how there could be prior to this.
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