|
Post by zendancer on Jan 31, 2011 0:27:05 GMT -5
Nice posts from Michael, ZD, and Enigma. Thanks guys. Stay in a state of agnosia (not knowing) until the truth appears." This is interesting. When you say not-knowing, you mean in that state where you realize you CAN'T and DON'T know anything? That was my life last week. It was not fun. Good, those guys drive me nuts Option #3 was don't seek / do nothing, I have a feeling that some seekers literally interpret that as "go back to your lives and do absolutely nothing and it will happen" If you knock on God's door long enough and loud enough, God will eventually have no choice but to take pity on you and let you in. You will become so irritating that you cannot be left outside making all that noise. Lol Agnosia is actually a state that oneness adopts when it is realized that conventional knowing is an obstruction. If we choose to (imaginatively) know the world, we bring forth the ten thousand things; when we unknow the world, only suchness remains. The admonition to stop seeking works for some people, like Gangaji. She had done everything she could to wake up, without success, so when Papaji told her to stop, she was ripe for that teaching. She often tells people that her stopping was a total mystery. Because it worked for her, she often uses the same teaching with others, sometimes successfully and other times not. Tony Parsons tells people that no one exists--that no one has ever bought a pair of shoes or done anything else. Some people are ripe for that teaching and when they hear it, BOOM! They get it. Ramesh told people that consciousness is all there is and no one has a choice about anything and some people (like Wayne Liquorman) heard that teaching and got it. All of these teachings are pointing to the same thing, so it all depends upon what resonates with someone. I once read about a Zen Master who came into a lecture hall to give a dharma talk to five hundred monks. He silently walked around the perimeter of the room three times, stopped, and said, "How amazing. I've been walking around inside your body for five minutes and not one of you have said a word." He then left the hall leaving all the monks mystified. No one got it. Some people become so ripe that all it takes is a tiny little thing to bring down the veil. I think it was Yasutani roshi who was giving a talk to about thirty people one night in Hawaii many years ago. He walked up to a chalkboard and drew a large circle. Then he placed a dot in the center of the circle, and said, "Most people think that they are this (pointing at the dot), but who they really are is this (pointing at the big circle)." Some lady at the back of the room suddenly woke up. How oneness discovers itself can be pretty mysterious.
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Jan 31, 2011 0:31:45 GMT -5
Nice posts from Michael, ZD, and Enigma. Thanks guys. Stay in a state of agnosia (not knowing) until the truth appears." This is interesting. When you say not-knowing, you mean in that state where you realize you CAN'T and DON'T know anything? That was my life last week. It was not fun. Your welcome and I agree it's never fun at first when we have no incoming data therefore we have no control. In the human we learn to control at a very early age and the imprint is extremely strong. As a baby around 2 we learn not by instinct but programed learning if we cry we can get what we want. So when you give it up you will have to go through some stuff only know you can do it and keep going. Michael
|
|
|
Post by angela on Jan 31, 2011 1:00:09 GMT -5
the not-knowing is why during the early/mid points on the ruthless truth page i was playing the "queen of curiosity" character..... trying to evidence that despite all argument, we can't really "know" the answers to any of these questions in the traditional sense.
i love the term prajna, loosely translated as heart wisdom.... it's a kind of knowing that comes from fully arriving where you always were and never weren't.... a knowing outside the mind.
seeking is going to happen, but the best part for me is the mystery - living *as* a question, living as curiosity. seeking not to find some pithy answer, but to engage the mysterious quality of life in the living of it.
don't get me wrong. the first few times it really hit me that i didn't, and couldn't, know anything.... i literally cried for weeks. weeks! but then the not knowing spread across my life and left such an open space, such a wonderful vibrant engagement with life that i could never again question the wisdom.
it's also humbling. it's true humility. to not know is to be fully open to being "wrong" in any moment, and living with good grace enough to not have a position to defend. and by knowing you are nothing special, you are not trying to shore up some separate self that in all actuality, doesn't exist.
it wasn't easy at first, but giving into the i-don't-know (after the mourning period that just sort of happened spontaneously) was a real turning point for me in the dance with/as Spirit.
|
|
|
Post by ivory on Jan 31, 2011 1:02:19 GMT -5
we have no incoming data therefore we have no control. I agree with the no control part. There is no we to have control. However, sensory information is incoming data. The mind responds to that data with a stream of thought, and the body takes action based on the stream of thought. **EDIT: hmm, now that I think about it, that's just the appearance of it, so I can't say for sure. thought --> action Another way to word what you wrote would be, "there is no we, therefore we have no control". But it would be absolutely nonsensical to word it that way
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Jan 31, 2011 1:35:12 GMT -5
we have no incoming data therefore we have no control. I agree with the no control part. There is no we to have control. However, sensory information is incoming data. The mind responds to that data with a stream of thought, and the body takes action based on the stream of thought. **EDIT: hmm, now that I think about it, that's just the appearance of it, so I can't say for sure. thought --> action Another way to word what you wrote would be, "there is no we, therefore we have no control". But it would be absolutely nonsensical to word it that way Incoming data means basically all thoughts you can feel this is not about numbing yourself so you feel everything you just go nowhere with it. Michael
|
|
|
Post by ivory on Jan 31, 2011 1:37:40 GMT -5
it's also humbling. it's true humility. to not know is to be fully open to being "wrong" in any moment, and living with good grace enough to not have a position to defend. and by knowing you are nothing special, you are not trying to shore up some separate self that in all actuality, doesn't exist. it wasn't easy at first, but giving into the i-don't-know (after the mourning period that just sort of happened spontaneously) was a real turning point for me in the dance with/as Spirit. Surrender. That's the ticket. Relevant song here, scope the lyrics if you're so inclined: www.youtube.com/watch?v=qruScwv9jJQ
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Jan 31, 2011 1:40:21 GMT -5
it's also humbling. it's true humility. to not know is to be fully open to being "wrong" in any moment, and living with good grace enough to not have a position to defend. and by knowing you are nothing special, you are not trying to shore up some separate self that in all actuality, doesn't exist. it wasn't easy at first, but giving into the i-don't-know (after the mourning period that just sort of happened spontaneously) was a real turning point for me in the dance with/as Spirit. Well said and you know when you live this way there is no wrong there is only what is as you removed yourself as a participant. I totally agree it was a real shift for me also. Michael
|
|
frustratedwanter
Full Member
Apparently I posted something in 2020. I don't think that's what I'm looking for but what ta hey?
Posts: 150
|
Post by frustratedwanter on Feb 26, 2011 12:59:12 GMT -5
I notice that my seeking is one of the main causes of misery. I realize that when seeking I'm searching for an object outside of the present experience. I realize I'm ALWAYS looking for something to be different from exactly what is going on. I sometimes suspect that "exactly what is going on" might be that truth/reality I keep hearing about. I don't like this reality, I want a different one. Why stop seeking? Because seeking is misery itself. Take a look. And yet... even so... I unfortunately have had some rather pleasant experiences so very long ago, (I call it "the rising emptiness") that I see I want to re-experience. I can see that in fact That is what I'm looking for. Never mind a bunch of trees and skies and birds and people and stuff. Paradoxically I don't strongly pursue that re-experience because "you're not supposed to do that". AND! the way there is a little scary, outcome uncertain. Keep talkin' guys. Somewhere out there is my "turning phrase".
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 26, 2011 20:53:44 GMT -5
Seeking is where all suffering happens, whether it's seeking love, fame, fortune, enlightenment, whatever, though the solution is not to stop seeking since this is just another form of seeking.
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Feb 27, 2011 0:56:36 GMT -5
Seeking is where all suffering happens, whether it's seeking love, fame, fortune, enlightenment, whatever, though the solution is not to stop seeking since this is just another form of seeking. ''Smacks Enigma with a stick".... LOL
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 27, 2011 2:25:17 GMT -5
Owie! Stop that! ;;;; Goes off to seek a bandage;;;;;
|
|
|
Post by Portto on Feb 27, 2011 14:36:26 GMT -5
Seeking is where all suffering happens, whether it's seeking love, fame, fortune, enlightenment, whatever, though the solution is not to stop seeking since this is just another form of seeking. Consciousness causes 'seeking' and consciousness causes 'suffering.'
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Feb 27, 2011 16:02:00 GMT -5
Seeking is where all suffering happens, whether it's seeking love, fame, fortune, enlightenment, whatever, though the solution is not to stop seeking since this is just another form of seeking. Consciousness causes 'seeking' and consciousness causes 'suffering.' I like to 'think', the consciousness/awareness gets trapped by the 'thought' of a seeker, when there really isn't one. When 'thought' realizes it's about to be found out, it simply distracts the consciousness/awareness with another 'thought', like the 'thought' of a 'sufferer', when there really isn't one. Just when the falsity of that thought is about to be revealed, thought distracts again with another thought, and another thought. On and on it goes, until when? "Smack's himself with a karate chop"
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 27, 2011 21:24:03 GMT -5
Seeking is where all suffering happens, whether it's seeking love, fame, fortune, enlightenment, whatever, though the solution is not to stop seeking since this is just another form of seeking. Consciousness causes 'seeking' and consciousness causes 'suffering.' By George (whoever that is) I think he's got it! (whatever 'it' is).
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Feb 28, 2011 11:54:04 GMT -5
Consciousness causes 'seeking' and consciousness causes 'suffering.' By George (whoever that is) I think he's got it! (whatever 'it' is). That doesn't seem right to me, the me who isn't here... If the consciousness causes 'seeking' and causes 'suffering', it must also be by that 'thought', which is ridiculous trying to 'think' about consciousness, the cause of 'not seeking' and be the cause of love, or non-suffering.... ....whew!!! Thought arises out of consciousness, consciousness doesn't arise out of thought... or consciousness can know thought, but can thought know consciousness? PS: ...that makes my thought about consciousness, equally ridiculous... LOL "Smack"
|
|