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Post by skyblue on Jan 14, 2011 20:46:50 GMT -5
I saw this nondual quote on facebook:
Bentinho Massaro Rest as pure certainty beyond uncertainties. If you think you don't know what certainty is, or think you cannot be certain beyond uncertainties, then just pretend to be absolutely certain of completion. Rest as if nothing more is needed. Rest as if you are total, the absolute. Pretend, and from within, authentic certainty will take over.
Isn't this conceptualizing?
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Post by michaelsees on Jan 14, 2011 21:21:28 GMT -5
Yes but what is not, throw out the concepts and pointers what else is left to teach with?
Michael
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Post by enigma on Jan 14, 2011 23:04:22 GMT -5
Yeah, it's all conceptualizing, but 'pretending' is more to the point. This is the idea of 'fake it till you make it' which appears to be a good foundation for some nasty delusions and self deception, but I've never actually seen anybody 'make it' that way. Certainty doesn't come from mind, and maybe our salvation is that mind cannot be certain, and so illusions ultimately fail, propelling us toward something else. Doubt is far more productive in moving us toward this failure than is certainty. At least I think that's true. Hehe.
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Post by karen on Jan 15, 2011 0:03:52 GMT -5
Oh gosh with me it was. I had a big loud voice of doubt for - well since tens of years ago. When starting the search I thought it was a big stumbling block. Nope. It was in fact one of my biggest allies! Once I stopped BSing myself - it finally went away. I'm sure I could coax it out with some manure though.
But if one focuses on the generic feeling of certainty and where it comes from only - that might actually do some good.
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Post by enigma on Jan 15, 2011 1:16:36 GMT -5
Funnily enough, for me, certainty is not a feeling at all, just the absence of doubt.
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Post by mamza on Jan 15, 2011 3:03:19 GMT -5
I think doubt, while it sucks to have, sometimes, is much more likely to get people to ask questions. "If this isn't true, what is?"
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Post by therealfake on Jan 16, 2011 14:21:19 GMT -5
I saw this nondual quote on facebook:Bentinho Massaro Rest as pure certainty beyond uncertainties. If you think you don't know what certainty is, or think you cannot be certain beyond uncertainties, then just pretend to be absolutely certain of completion. Rest as if nothing more is needed. Rest as if you are total, the absolute. Pretend, and from within, authentic certainty will take over. Isn't this conceptualizing? Yes, it is, but aren't certainty and uncertainty two sides of the same coin? As an example, if I am certain that I will catch the bus at 10:00 AM and it comes by on time and I get on. I have caught the bus and made it to work on time. This is one perception. If I am uncertain that I will catch the bus at 10:00 AM and it comes by on time and I get on. I have caught the bus and made it to work on time as well. This is the other perception. It seems that the actual experience, catching the bus, is not determined by the minds certainty or uncertainty. But it maybe the perception of the experience is. For me it's better to be uncertain about everything, that way life always seems fresh, magical and not taken for granted. Spiritually speaking, is it better to be certain that we are the unknowable or uncertain that we are the unknowable? Maybe that's the difference between awakened and not. TRF
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2011 15:49:41 GMT -5
Yes, mind can't be certain of anything, it can only pretend or imagine to be. What mind deals with is limited to it's own imagination/conceptualization/perception, which remains relative and has no absolute foundation, and so certainty is just another concept.
However, what 'we' actually are is not mind, and beyond mind there can be clarity, and this clarity is not subject to mind's doubt. This is the meaning of 'self evident Truth'. This clarity is not one of mind's concepts. Clarity is actually anathema to concepts.
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Post by therealfake on Jan 16, 2011 21:03:59 GMT -5
Yes, mind can't be certain of anything, it can only pretend or imagine to be. What mind deals with is limited to it's own imagination/conceptualization/perception, which remains relative and has no absolute foundation, and so certainty is just another concept. However, what 'we' actually are is not mind, and beyond mind there can be clarity, and this clarity is not subject to mind's doubt. This is the meaning of 'self evident Truth'. This clarity is not one of mind's concepts. Clarity is actually anathema to concepts. It's true we are not the mind, but one has to tread lightly when imagining what's on the other side of transcending the mind. Even 'self evident Truth' is observable to that which we are. Mooji said that, what we are is kind of like a knife. It can cut many things, but it can't cut itself. Or, like a scale that can weigh anything, but it can't weigh itself. We are there prior to whatever arises, but what we are, is not a thing, not a concept, not clarity and not even self evident truth...
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2011 21:10:00 GMT -5
Just stay open to the possibility that you CAN know with certainty.
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Post by therealfake on Jan 17, 2011 12:26:07 GMT -5
Just stay open to the possibility that you CAN know with certainty. Yes, but as long as I am a physical body, with a brain, which seems to create my experience of everything. I can't be certain, that I'm not just a grand illusion or something more...
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Post by michaelsees on Jan 17, 2011 12:39:33 GMT -5
Yes, but as long as I am a physical body, with a brain, which seems to create my experience of everything. I can't be certain, that I'm not just a grand illusion or something more... I count (3) I(s) in your answer. All 3 of them are not really you ? Michael
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Post by question on Jan 17, 2011 12:52:33 GMT -5
Karl Renz somewhere said something to the effect that because we're afraid of death, the concept of the one to be afraid for can't be "what is". IOW the existence of the kind of self that is doubtful, can't be "what is". The question is always "what is?" and we're trying to relate concepts to it and see if they apply. If there is a doubt about whether the concept applies, the sheer doubt is evidence that the doubtful concept (and that which the concept is supposed to depict, since it's also part of the concept) isn't "what is". And to make it practical: if I doubt that the knower or awareness is "what is", then that probably means that my concept of the knower and awareness isn't "what is"?
Outside of the question of "what is?" there can be certainty. Given a bunch of axioms, the conclusions that follow from these axioms correctly, are certain. I would call that relative certainty. Relative because when the axioms are confronted with certainty of existence of that which they are supposed to depict, there is again doubt. And this doubt weighs more than relative certainty. There can't be no doubt. The problem is that this kind of doubt relates to as to whether the objective world is indeed such that the axioms apply, what isn't possible for the representational mind to doubt is that some kind of objective world exists in the first place. Which means that this kind of doubt really expresses a belief and is therefore useless in relation to the question "what is?". Theologians will ask "Why did God create the universe?". Physicists will ask "What is the most fundamental particle?" And I think that both questions are irrelevant relative to the question "what is?".
It's like the mind is in a self-destruct mode which it is unable to execute. It's a very unsatisfying situation, emotionally and intellectually. I see at least two solutions (well, two and a half). One is to choose a belief and stick with it. Second choice is to employ Occam's Razor, which is reasonable, but again unsatisfying. The last option (about which I'm not sure if and how it's even possible to enforce) is to recognize all that which is doubtful (therefore unrelated to "what is?") and clear the inquiry about "what is?" from all that is doubtful.
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Post by michaelsees on Jan 17, 2011 13:10:46 GMT -5
Well imo "what is" can never be doubted in this world or in no world.
Whatever what is it's what is. A person walks across the street get's hit by a car, Your wife leaves you for another man, your kid calls you a old fart. A golden light visits your dark bedroom at night. What is by it's nature is doubtless. The only way doubt could be placed on "what is" by disillusion"mind" someone with mental disorders but for the rest of us it's a simple surrender to the "what is"
Michael
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Post by therealfake on Jan 17, 2011 13:43:50 GMT -5
Well imo "what is" can never be doubted in this world or in no world. Whatever what is it's what is. A person walks across the street get's hit by a car, Your wife leaves you for another man, your kid calls you a old fart. A golden light visits your dark bedroom at night. What is by it's nature is doubtless. The only way doubt could be placed on "what is" by disillusion"mind" someone with mental disorders but for the rest of us it's a simple surrender to the "what is" Michael Yes, unless 'what is' is a hologram...
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