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Post by mamza on Jan 14, 2011 16:18:57 GMT -5
So at certain times, seeing is present. At other times, it is not. Sometimes the awareness of seeing being present or not present is present.
In seeing mode, there is no 'knowing.' There is no me, speaking is almost impossible for the 'me' that is there when seeing isn't present, along with hearing, understanding, thinking, and anything else to do with 'me.'
When seeing is not present, the mind is at work sometimes, and it likes to play its tricks. A lot of times, awareness of the tricks is not present, and so they continue to grow and grow and grow--the awareness of that growing is not there, and so it is nigh impossible to stop. At a certain point, however, there is this huge, confusing mess on the mind, and the awareness of that comes into play.
As the awareness of the mess happens, the effort to be silent is made. Attention is placed on the actual, and sooner or later the mess falls apart. The more often attention is placed on the actual, the less often the mess happens, and the less gigantic it gets. Questions get smaller and more basic. Sometimes not basic enough, but at least more manageable than before.
So now I'm curious: how do you function in seeing mode? "I" have had people talk directly to me, maybe two feet away, and not been able to understand anything they say. "I" do not have to be present for things to happen, and trying to understand it in terms of "I" may be pointless, but the curiosity remains.
Thoughts?
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Post by michaelsees on Jan 14, 2011 16:45:26 GMT -5
Function? Just be with it. Why would you want to think that there is a certain way to function with this?
Michael
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Post by karen on Jan 14, 2011 17:18:20 GMT -5
This seems familiar with me mamza. Sometimes though I wonder if remembrance - remembering to be present or silent - is just a thought that I remembered - and presence and silence was already there. Ha just writing this is blowing my mind.  |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 14, 2011 18:24:45 GMT -5
When attention is focused upon the actual, there is no reflectivity, so all separateness is absent. When this happens, there is no one who sees. We could also say that when there is this kind of direct seeing, the universe is what sees.
The illusion of selfhood is caused by the habit of internal speech and the projection of ideas, images, and symbols ABOUT reality. Structures of thought maintain the illusion, but if thoughts do not reinforce the illusion, it eventually collapses.
Quite often a meditator will experience a few moments of internal silence and will then think, "How wonderful, my mind has become silent," only to realize with chagrin that that thought broke the silence. LOL.
However, deeper levels of silence can occur wherein there is awareness of silence without internal comment. When this level of silence is attained, simple seeing occurs unaccompanied by any form of intellection. When out for a walk, for example, the world is seen as it is in total silence; there is no internal speech whatsoever. In total silence there is no thought about a see-er; there is only seeing. The duality of inside/outside is absent.
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Post by michaelsees on Jan 14, 2011 18:50:05 GMT -5
Nice post..
I had some similar experiences a longtime ago before any kind of introduction to spiritual "work"
those days were filled with free love, drugs and inner revolution for me
I was young and crazy and made up this sentence. IT became my mantra before mantras
I wrote it on paper and stuck it around my apt.
"It is only when I am outside my mind that I know I exist"
probably not he most correct way of speaking about non duality but it made sense then and still does 30 years after.
Michael
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Post by sherry on Jan 14, 2011 20:40:57 GMT -5
When attention is focused upon the actual, there is no reflectivity, so all separateness is absent. When this happens, there is no one who sees. We could also say that when there is this kind of direct seeing, the universe is what sees. The illusion of selfhood is caused by the habit of internal speech and the projection of ideas, images, and symbols ABOUT reality. Structures of thought maintain the illusion, but if thoughts do not reinforce the illusion, it eventually collapses. Quite often a meditator will experience a few moments of internal silence and will then think, "How wonderful, my mind has become silent," only to realize with chagrin that that thought broke the silence. LOL. However, deeper levels of silence can occur wherein there is awareness of silence without internal comment. When this level of silence is attained, simple seeing occurs unaccompanied by any form of intellection. When out for a walk, for example, the world is seen as it is in total silence; there is no internal speech whatsoever. In total silence there is no thought about a see-er; there is only seeing. The duality of inside/outside is absent. What a beautifully clear expression. Thank you. |
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Post by mamza on Jan 14, 2011 23:06:59 GMT -5
Thanks for all the posts. The no reflectivity thing is definitely there...the things I say and post here are just thoughts about it happening after the fact. I was just curious what would happen if, say, I was in a silent mode and somebody came over to talk to me--how that would possibly happen. In the sense that I'm curious about what WOULD happen in that scenario. From where "I'm" at, speech is incredibly difficult at that 'place'. It's almost impossible to speak out loud and be silent at the same time. Is it supposed to be that way? Or will there be a point when it can happen?
Recently I came to a non-possessive state (realized that there was a sense of self, and that it didn't come from me), and I saw what I can only relate as a screen to you. A board that things were on, including myself and everything else. The 'how wonderful' thought kicked in and I was out of it, and I remember thinking, "well that's it. That's all there is. There is that--looking outside of it shows me nothing, because nothing is outside of that."
This sort of 'click' into non thinking (kind of like randomly zoning out) is happening more frequently without me intending it to, and in this state I can't really listen, talk or do anything other than what my body can do physically without snapping myself out of it. Since it's happening more frequently, I was wondering whether or not the state becomes permanent, and if so how interaction between the supposed nobodys of the world happens.
I mean, just because the mind/body known as Mamza is in this place doesn't mean the other mind/bodies of the world are too, and many might think Mamza's inability to speak strange. I've seen many 'enlightened folk' give interviews, so I know it's possible to speak...I'm just wondering if the no-thought mode becomes permanent, and if so how the speaking happens. If it's not....well...ha.
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Post by mamza on Jan 14, 2011 23:24:47 GMT -5
I just re-read that and that makes a lot of sense! I'm easily distracted, though, so I tend to get caught up in the thought of the possibility of something being a thought. I go on feedback loops for ages... gotta breathe to end it.
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Post by enigma on Jan 14, 2011 23:31:33 GMT -5
I may not be following because I don't really identify with the experience of not being able to speak or listen or whatever. We're accustomed to overlaying thought onto our speaking and listening, but it really happens by itself, assuming there's any interest present to do that, which maybe is the issue. Sometimes I seem to prefer to walk away without comprehending or responding, but my sense of civility engages the mind to find the 'appropriate' response until I can get away. Hehe.
I don't really know what "silent mode" means. There is a Silence of being where one may sit and watch the show, but it doesn't have anything to do with no-noise or not speaking or even not thinking. IOW, Silence is what you are, not what happens. What happens can't ultimately disturb what you are, nor can you not be present. You're present to the thought that you're not present. You're the silence that is aware that there isn't silence.
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Post by mamza on Jan 15, 2011 0:01:09 GMT -5
This right here is probably EXACTLY what's happening. I hadn't realized that this could even happen!
And if this is the case, I've just been watching the show so far.
So then I would just be the blank place in which anything could appear? There wouldn't be a me watching the show, there would just be a me that the show is appearing on? I am the show?
It seems I went from thinking to watching....time to move to being, I guess.
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Post by enigma on Jan 15, 2011 1:20:48 GMT -5
"So then I would just be the blank place in which anything could appear? There wouldn't be a me watching the show, there would just be a me that the show is appearing on? I am the show?"
HA! Yeah.
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Post by mamza on Jan 15, 2011 2:57:19 GMT -5
Time to change the channel, LOL. Mamza is kind of boring, let's go watch some Spongebob instead! I feel kind of silly now. I want to ask what the point of all this is, but I'm not really sure there is one.
I just started thinking about some of the dumb things I do like making weird, annoying noises with my friends with the idea of being the movie in mind and started laughing really hard. And how convoluted and pointless a movie about me would be.
And now a new question appears : How do you make that space blank again? It's inherently blank, but we (I) assume the appearance of objects somehow removes that blankness. How could it be blank if there's an object on the paper, right? Is it possible, or would the elimination of objects just be another object? The object perceiving the destruction would be an object... too many questions.
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Post by enigma on Jan 15, 2011 3:47:10 GMT -5
Sure, space is space before, during and after it's populated with objects. Attention is drawn outward to the objects and a personal world of experience is created and enjoyed and hated and so on. I would say interest is the pivot point. If there's an interest in improving and fixing the experience, the attention will continue to be drawn to the objects of experience, and so it must be seen that this is futile.
At this point, it may be useful to look at what is actually wanted. This want is usually problematic because it's not 'space' that wants something but rather the imaginary identity, and how can this want the Truth which does not include it? Mind wants a permanently happy experience, which isn't very bloody likely for a dualistic illusion generator. Happiness is the absence of the one who wants happiness.......Oops!
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Post by therealfake on Jan 15, 2011 9:57:24 GMT -5
Sure, space is space before, during and after it's populated with objects. I was just wondering.  Does this space, have an independence of it's own, or is it dependent on the physicality and perception of a human host? I don't want to assume, that the perception of space might just be another thought, subtle as it may be, that's why I'm asking. TRF |
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Post by angela on Jan 15, 2011 10:54:54 GMT -5
it seems like maybe the only healthy use for the mind, while it still spins, is to engage the curiosity, to rather live there as much as you can, if your mind is doing its dance. letting yourself not-know alleviates a lot of suffering, and keeps the space open to just be what is.  |
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