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Post by michaelsees on Jan 11, 2011 14:16:07 GMT -5
Ivory Karen is spot on.
The reason why only these thoughts keep coming up is because you have given them special meaning to you. If not they would be like the other 60,000 thoughts that go by us unnoticed.
If they are something you can do about them such as pay a bill or something you feel the need to say to someone just do it.
If they seem to be something else then just be still and quiet with the thought and only observe if you continue to do this the thoughts will go away. The key here is not to invest anything into the thought just observe.
Michael
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Post by jasonl on Jan 11, 2011 14:33:36 GMT -5
yo ivory,
"But that's not to say that the mind doesn't get caught up in identification, or that it gives up the belief in self altogether.
The stream of thought still must guide the human form. Freedom is realizing that the stream of thought, and the human form which it guides, aren't actually you. There really is no mind as an "entity" to identify with anything. There is simply a seamless flow of experience unfolding inside that which never changes, that which you always are.
Initially the mind understands that the "person you think yourself to be" is nothing but imagination, that there really is no "me" or separate self. After this, it is the "sense of being the thinker/ego/mind" which likewise must be seen through. I imagine this is what you are pointing at in terms of identifying, the feeling sense that you are your mind?
The mind still must be utilized to play the role of the person, a role which is played inside the ever present witness. There is nothing the mind can do to be that, because what you are already is that.
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Post by ivory on Jan 11, 2011 15:18:55 GMT -5
After this, it is the "sense of being the thinker/ego/mind" which likewise must be seen through. You've piqued my interest here. See through the sense of ego? Can you elaborate on this a bit? I imagine this is what you are pointing at in terms of identifying, the feeling sense that you are your mind? There's the feeling or sense that I'm something even though I know that's not true. But I don't know what that something is, perhaps the mind, I'm really not sure.
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Post by ivory on Jan 11, 2011 15:23:00 GMT -5
Michael, perhaps I should clarify. The only reason I brought this up in the first place is I've noticed these repetitive thoughts for weeks, perhaps even over a month or longer. I'm talking about some really nagging s**t. And it's not some "handle your business" type thoughts or like I have something to get off my chest. That's why I was requesting some help. They are not going away with meditation or simply by observing them. They are sticky as hell.
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Post by michaelsees on Jan 11, 2011 15:42:55 GMT -5
-I understand you have been given the gift of sticking as hell thoughts. You are very lucky to have such a gift. Stillness is not meditation. When the thoughts come just be still and inquire who is experiencing these thoughts. Just be still and they will go away. However if you are not still with yourself and keep getting into little panics you will only make super glu!
Be still an know that there is nothing you can do about it except to be still.
Michael
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Post by popee on Jan 11, 2011 16:08:43 GMT -5
Nearly everyone I know "lives in the land of dwell". Careful reflection is the only way out.
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Post by therealfake on Jan 11, 2011 16:57:04 GMT -5
Nearly everyone I know "lives in the land of dwell". Careful reflection is the only way out. "Living in the land of dwell", I like that. One satsang teacher said "show me a thought"... Another said,"... the mind doesn't really exist and yet it causes all this trouble", Mooji stated that, "We believe thoughts into existence and then we have to believe another thought, to get rid of the first thought. So why not forget about both thoughts and stay where you are"
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Post by jasonl on Jan 11, 2011 17:35:04 GMT -5
Anybody wanna teach me how to put what other people said in the cool quote box? Karma comin your way! Before I get into what you asked ivory, I wanted to comment on this: Ivory said, "The only reason I brought this up in the first place is I've noticed these repetitive thoughts for weeks, perhaps even over a month or longer. I'm talking about some really nagging s**t." So inquire into these thoughts, especially when they arise. See what external stimulus is causing these thoughts to come about. Learn the mechanics of the mind's thinking. There must be some motivation for these repetitive thoughts to arise, even if that motivation is at this time not consciously known. On the "path of awakening", whatever the hell that is, the initial insight that there is no separate self can cause a bit of a muck in the mind's thought patterns. The mind takes on this notion of "killing the person", or inquiring the separate self out of existence, which often leads the mind to disconnect from the emotional body. In a way, the initial insight of no separate self actually causes the individual mind to become more repressed on the level of emotion, as emotions which the mind does not want to face are easily avoided by simply thinking, "there is no person". The emotions which get repressed into the emotional body will manifest in the mind's thought patterns in one way or another. If external stimulus kicks off a stream of thinking which might lead to these repressed emotions being felt, the mind will act out in anger against "others". Rather than feel emotions, the mind would rather project them outward, onto the image of oneself or someone else. Depression, self loathing, low self esteem, anger, hatred, all stem from the tendency of mind to play "emotional manager". This is a role the mind plays under the false pretenses "of actually being " a separate self. Once the mind learns to not fear pain, and not chase pleasure, the role of emotional manager has been seen through. Moving forward, on the day to day, open up, on the level of mind, to the potential of feeling pain. When these negative thoughts do arise, take a deeper look and see what's underneath them. It sounds counterintuitive to the mind, especially one dabbling in enlightenment, but freedom is through pain, not from it. Odds are the thoughts you are experiencing are simply surface level manifestations of the mind and emotional body being disconnected. If this sounds like the case, lemme know if you would like me to say more. Ivory said, "See through the sense of ego? Can you elaborate on this a bit? " Surely. It is the belief that ego/mind exists as a distinct and separate entity which keeps us shackled to the chains of separation. You seem to have a solid understanding that there is no such thing as a separate self, and that the mind itself doesn't actually exist. Yet, the feeling sense of being the thinker tends to stick around. Understanding the mechanics of thinking, of desire and fear, will help any mind interested in realizing its own non-existence. Of course we could say that realization itself is not of the mind, but of that which is beyond, something which is non-mental, but until the mind itself has been fully understood, what is typically pointed to as "realization" will not dawn. Mind is always striving, always seeking itself through thinking. Mind desperately wants to be something, anything really. I like to call this self seeking, the mind's tendency to strive for an image of somewhere other than now. Whether it is striving to be an enlightened separate self, or some other image of self, this striving will disconnect the human form from here and now, because wholeness is being sought through the dimension of the fragmented. You can never find wholeness as a separate self or thinking mind. You can only be the wholeness you already are. Take a look at your desires and see if any are "grounded in separation". Take a look at your fears, and understand where they are coming from with your mind. Maybe these thoughts are arising due to some underlying fear which has not been fully understood. Some common ones are fear of emotional pain, of vulnerability, conflict, intimacy, death, and of course the ego's own fear of realizing its own non-existence. Also, be on the lookout for the mind to take things "personally", an indication that something hasn't been fully understood. Not something to be judged, just a call for inquiry within... Certainly there is nothing you must to to be what you always already are. But turning the mind on itself is a more than fruitful thing to do. I'll stop there for now... cool discussion everyone. Glad to have found this board
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Post by michaelsees on Jan 11, 2011 18:08:03 GMT -5
Anybody wanna teach me how to put what other people said in the cool quote box? Karma comin your way! Go back to your post and click quote top right You see the number 1294785304 then the ] from the ] to the [/quote] at the end you just take out what you want in between. Oh when you type just make sure you type outside the [/ quote] Never mind about Karma points I never pay attention anyhow well not as much as another member has these last few day ha ha Michael
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Post by ivory on Jan 11, 2011 19:16:03 GMT -5
Odds are the thoughts you are experiencing are simply surface level manifestations of the mind and emotional body being disconnected. If this sounds like the case, lemme know if you would like me to say more. If you mean that I can't pin-point the emotions associated with these thoughts, then yes, that is exactly what is going on. I've inquired into them, even busted out the pen and paper, but perhaps I need to dig deeper. So if you'd like to elaborate on this mind/emotional body disconnect I'd love to hear it. turning the mind on itself is a more than fruitful thing to do This is precisely what I've been doing. Sometimes I feel that the mind has turned into a thought-watching machine (sometimes it's a bit frightening because it's clear that I'm not doing it). But at times it's tough to see what's going on at a deeper level. Just out of curiousity, how important do you think formal meditation is? jasonl, you've been an incredible help. I think you may have gotten me unstuck. Glad to have you here.
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Post by therealfake on Jan 11, 2011 22:02:52 GMT -5
Odds are the thoughts you are experiencing are simply surface level manifestations of the mind and emotional body being disconnected. If this sounds like the case, lemme know if you would like me to say more. If you mean that I can't pin-point the emotions associated with these thoughts, then yes, that is exactly what is going on. I've inquired into them, even busted out the pen and paper, but perhaps I need to dig deeper. So if you'd like to elaborate on this mind/emotional body disconnect I'd love to hear it. turning the mind on itself is a more than fruitful thing to do This is precisely what I've been doing. Sometimes I feel that the mind has turned into a thought-watching machine (sometimes it's a bit frightening because it's clear that I'm not doing it). But at times it's tough to see what's going on at a deeper level. Just out of curiousity, how important do you think formal meditation is? jasonl, you've been an incredible help. I think you may have gotten me unstuck. Glad to have you here. Maybe you could try forgiving yourself for having these thoughts. Sometimes it's the people involved or it's just plain guilt in disguise. (May or may not be the situation) Anyway, the greatest gift you can give yourself is forgiveness, according to Burt Harding. Now, he's not talking about the usual forgiving here, the oh I forgive you for being an ass kind of forgiveness... Forgiveness in this context means the willingness, to forget all about it. Maybe someone hurt your feelings, or worse and you feel you can't forgive them. (just a scenario) Really, who is suffering here, you or them? (again, does not reflect any person living or dead) When you are willing to forget all about it, the Course in Miracles, says that "you are standing on holy ground". So, allow yourself to forget all about them and see if they go away.
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Post by karen on Jan 11, 2011 22:30:14 GMT -5
effort must be place elsewhere to push the lever to get this compulsion to notice old thoughts to diminish. Hmm, not sure what you mean. I don't blame you. I seem to have rocks in my mouth there! I was trying to sound elegant just saying that you gotta fix the core problem, not the symptoms. Repeating myself. BTW, I read about your goal here is truth. If you don't mind me questioning this in you. Truth is my objective here for sure, but only because I had my face pushed into the dirt by my ignorance. If it wasn't for my desire to "get better", I would have just hung myself. So basically same ol' same ol' as far as motivations except at this point I could clearly see that BSing myself was causing much of my problems and only being 100% honest with myself (I can lie like a rug to anyone else if need be) was going to get me better. Lastly, I want to mention some of the stupid stuff I use to and sometime still do think about. Like the time in the '80s where I once almost climbed down in a tight hole at a decommissioned missile base. I didn't climb down it because it looked like I might get trapped. But decades later I'd sweat at night in bed - "had I climbed down there!!!" <terror> Or all the times my mind shows me the possibility of committing violence on completely innocent people - people I love no less - terrible images of my going postal for no freakin' reason! Why? I don't want to do these things! Or the time that guy said something to me in high school but I had spit in the back of my mouth and so my hi back sounded like a "retard" - again and again it comes back to haunt me. Phuck! I got way more than that. That's just a sampler, but you get the idea. There are tricks we can use to make us feel better in the moment when experiencing those horrible thoughts. And there's no problem whatsoever trying to ease the pain of those thoughts - as these are experienced in the same part of the brain as physical pain. Just keep focused on the end game (sounds like you are - being finished with being pwned but some punk as$ memory. Look at the part of you that has never changed. That run-of-the-mill feeling of you - put your attention there whenever possible as much as you feel comfortable with! About the thoughts - their stickiness has been lessened. I think they will always be there. But I just won't bring them out and run them over my pain receptors every night upon retiring.
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Post by enigma on Jan 12, 2011 0:51:59 GMT -5
There's a subtle conundrum here since thoughts feed on our attention to them, and yet the lack of attention is what holds ignorance (false ideas/patterns) in place. The 'solution' is likewise subtle, and has already been hinted at.
The noticing of the presence of thoughts, and whatever underlying motivations may be present, is not the same as an interest in following the thoughts themselves. It's the belief in the thoughts being useful, entertaining and of importance that sustains them, whereas noticing the destructive, annoying, distracting, false nature of thoughts has the opposite effect.
Nothing need be done but the noticing. You are not the conscious controller of thoughts, but you are the noticer. Noticing, which some call awareness, informs the mind at deeper levels of consciousness that are pre-thought, and if there is clarity as to the unwanted nature of these thoughts, they will cease over time.
If the thoughts are seen as serving the function of sustaining the self image, then this is likely what they are. Seeing this does not necessarily mean they will stop because you may want to sustain the self image. In this case, it may be useful to look more deeply into the reality of this image you want to sustain and see if there is really something there.
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Post by sherry on Jan 12, 2011 3:33:18 GMT -5
[ And I agree with you about effort. I disagree with those that say that no effort is needed (But that's not to say to get caught up in an endless cycle of seeking). No, these are not day to day worries. These are imaginary conversations, scenarios that reinforce the sense of self (e.g. wanting to be right, proving others wrong). Really nasty. Hi Ivory From your reply to Karen, it seems like you know what these thoughts are about. I've found that noticing them and smiling at them allows them to 'let go of me'. Tackling them strengthens them AND they are part of THAT just as the apparent concepts relating to 'me' are. As such, they are welcome and not rejected or considered nasty. Since their reason for being is clear to you, a nod a a little smile is all that's needed. They will evaporate ..... in time.... Good wishes.
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Post by jasonl on Jan 12, 2011 12:40:16 GMT -5
What is up?
The "unawakened mind" can go years if not lifetimes interpreting reality as if it actually is this image of self. The mind becomes disconnected from the emotional body whenever the mind thinks that a certain experience should not be happening. The thinking mind, not you, blocks its thoughts of a given experience, along with any emotions which come along with it. The repressed emotions from this blocking, however, remain in the emotional body, yearning to be felt. This yearning often leads to projection, the tendency of the mind to hide repressed pain through projection outward.
As mentioned, the awakened mind adds a layer onto the tendency to repress, to not want to feel emotional hurt, because the image/story of separate self which emotions are based is seen to be nothing but a figment of imagination.
Understanding the image of self, the person you think yourself to be, isn't ultimately real, does not rid the emotional body connected with the human form of repressed emotion. In contrast, this learning tends to build the pool of repressed emotion, particularly when enlightenment is used as a means to hide from emotional pain.
In terms of moving forward, see through the notion that enlightenment is the end of emotional pain. This is mind created imagery and totally self serving, meaning motivated by what you could never possibly be. Allow the mind to play the role of the person, and allow it to play it fully. Let it be ivory. What does it matter anyway? Open up to the emotional body. Notice egoic reactions designed to keep emotional pain from being felt. Invite these emotions in with open arms, and you will likely begin to notice the emotional body unrepressing itself. By dismantling the mind created defense mechanisms grounded in the false belief that you actually are a separate self, the light of what you are can shine through. When you see projection taking place, particularly onto those you love, inquire into it. Our love relationships in life have so much to teach. If there is a fear of love, of being in a relationship, inquire into that. Love and suffering, my two favorite teachers. Although I suppose they aren't really two, are they?
I would say not necessary at all, although you may find yourself naturally drawn to stillness as you begin to realize you are the formless reality permeating even these words. Formal meditation is one way some minds hide from emotional pain. Like, uh oh, pain is manifesting through self inflicted suffering (one form of projection), I better go meditate. Not only does this not get to the core emotional issue that repressed emotion may be the underlying cause, but it simultaneously builds up a false sense of self as a meditator, or someone who is doing this enlightenment thing really good.
There's actually no one here, nobody behind the wheel, just a stream of thinking guiding a body through this thing called the human experience. You are that which experience arises inside of and depends upon. You are the Self, unthinkable, untouchable, ungraspable, yet nonetheless realizable as what you are and have always been.
--j
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