|
Post by michaelsees on Jan 3, 2011 20:26:45 GMT -5
Well I did say I was rambling he he. Basically I said consciousness can never be trusted because it changes as the wind. You can create anything with it but so what? So when we speak in consciousness which is the only way I know how to speak everyone is correct by their own creation of their truth on a certain level.
The whole idea of truly waking up has to do with breaking thru this consciousness. I was only half correct when I said it's not a helper it's both a helper and a adversary of deception. So fighting fire with fire as Nis has said to keep in the I am until it breaks is the way thru.
Michael
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jan 4, 2011 2:52:35 GMT -5
Sounds to me like Michael is saying he doesn't know if free will is true or not and is trying to convince us that it's unknowable by equating it with Truth. Illusions can, in fact, be seen for what they are. This is not Truth realization, it's just the realization that a particular idea is an illusion. If one is willing to see, it can be seen that free will is an illusion.
|
|
|
Post by m on Jan 4, 2011 7:07:28 GMT -5
equating it with the truth ? m Sounds to me like Michael is saying he doesn't know if free will is true or not and is trying to convince us that it's unknowable by equating it with Truth. Illusions can, in fact, be seen for what they are. This is not Truth realization, it's just the realization that a particular idea is an illusion. If one is willing to see, it can be seen that free will is an illusion.
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Jan 4, 2011 10:40:57 GMT -5
Sounds to me like Michael is saying he doesn't know if free will is true or not and is trying to convince us that it's unknowable by equating it with Truth. Illusions can, in fact, be seen for what they are. This is not Truth realization, it's just the realization that a particular idea is an illusion. If one is willing to see, it can be seen that free will is an illusion. Hi Enigma, I think that, even Truth realization or God cannot not be excluded as an illusion, based on the assumption that thoughts are illusions. Being that those two idea's are both fundamentally thoughts that someone believes to be true. Just because they are holier or closer to the truth, doesn't exclude them from being illusions created by the mind. As far as free will is concerned, I do believe we have a sense of free will, but only in one capacity, that being the ability to resist the truth of who and what we are until death. TRF
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jan 4, 2011 12:02:12 GMT -5
TRF: Even the ability to resist the truth is beyond either the idea of free will or the idea of no free will. Who would be resisting the truth? The only one here is the Big Empty doing what It does. LOL
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Jan 4, 2011 12:07:45 GMT -5
Actually it's both there is free-will but the problem is when you try to convince yourself that free-will does not exist you are looking at things from your level only. This is the common mistake that almost all people make on the path. The no free will idea fits into your package of what you think, realize or whatever from your place as you perceive the truth. We can get all confused when we begin to come up with clever explanations on why or why not there is free-will. One thing I learn long ago was paradox's on the path. The spiritual journey is filled with them. The thing is once you realize from a higher vantage point the paradox will collapse and only the truth remains BUT it's only the truth as you can see it now as you continue another paradox comes up and the same thing happens. This continues. Many "evolved seekers" will say well free-will is impossible because what we truly are is the absolute itself and everything we do is only imaginary so no will exists free or not. Well this again is true for that place of realization. It becomes the truth your truth however I suggest we are far from done. Each truth is true for that level of realization. No one can ever say that ultimately there is no free-will or there is free-will. You can only say from my realization there is or isn't. This is why I try to add "at least for me" when I post. Michael Sounds to me like Michael is saying he doesn't know if free will is true or not and is trying to convince us that it's unknowable by equating it with Truth. Illusions can, in fact, be seen for what they are. This is not Truth realization, it's just the realization that a particular idea is an illusion. If one is willing to see, it can be seen that free will is an illusion.
|
|
|
Post by karen on Jan 4, 2011 12:57:05 GMT -5
Many "evolved seekers" will say well free-will is impossible because what we truly are is the absolute itself and everything we do is only imaginary so no will exists free or not. Well this again is true for that place of realization. It becomes the truth your truth however I suggest we are far from done. The above rational this hypothetical seeker has for why there is no free will does not actually follow (at least for me ). It might be enough to trick the mind to believing something. But I don't think there is truth there. Just the concept of truth - thus memory, imagination, illusion. Maybe you and enigma have different definitions of truth.
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Jan 4, 2011 13:33:10 GMT -5
Yes thanks Karen that was my whole point. When we have these discussions we are going to one imaginary realization to another and there will be more to come. We see something as truth whatever it may be, no matter how powerful it is but it is still being discussed on the level of imagination. This is why I believe their is the same amount of error in saying we have free will to saying we don't. The real truth, the gospel truth is we just don't know. We do not know what we are or what the absolute is. Even if we say the Absolute just is and leave it at that we don't know. It's simply not knowable and anything that is said about it is a lie and not truth. This leads us to a place where the realization can hit us that to give up trying to know anything is the best move. Just to be.
Michael
|
|
|
Post by Portto on Jan 4, 2011 14:35:05 GMT -5
Free will is like Santa Claus.
|
|
|
Post by karen on Jan 4, 2011 15:31:09 GMT -5
Well it's a we don't know because knowledge is limiting and finite and only applies to our deductive map we use to understand the world, whereas reality is.
But it's not a we don't know because we simply don't have the capacity to see a potential objective truth.
Good one porto.
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Jan 4, 2011 15:38:16 GMT -5
The question then becomes, does the eternal, God or IT, being the one and only will, (if you believe in oneness) have the freedom to express it's will? If you believe so, then there is free will.
|
|
|
Post by m on Jan 4, 2011 15:45:23 GMT -5
Of course we don't know! Of course whatever verbal stuff does not describe It! Nevertheless or we speak from the truth ( (or The Truth speak out Itself, if the word "we" troubles "you" ;D ) or we speak from the mind. m Yes thanks Karen that was my whole point. When we have these discussions we are going to one imaginary realization to another and there will be more to come. We see something as truth whatever it may be, no matter how powerful it is but it is still being discussed on the level of imagination. This is why I believe their is the same amount of error in saying we have free will to saying we don't. The real truth, the gospel truth is we just don't know. We do not know what we are or what the absolute is. Even if we say the Absolute just is and leave it at that we don't know. It's simply not knowable and anything that is said about it is a lie and not truth. This leads us to a place where the realization can hit us that to give up trying to know anything is the best move. Just to be. Michael
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Jan 4, 2011 15:54:28 GMT -5
The question then becomes, does the eternal, God or IT, being the one and only will, (if you believe in oneness) have the freedom to express it's will? If you believe so, then there is free will.
|
|
|
Post by karen on Jan 4, 2011 15:58:59 GMT -5
The question then becomes, does the eternal, God or IT, being the one and only will, (if you believe in oneness) have the freedom to express it's will? If you believe so, then there is free will. I don't see how to the first question, and to the second: reality isn't a deductive structure, but the mind is. Reality is unperturbed by either of our beliefs.
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Jan 4, 2011 16:00:17 GMT -5
Well there are some to believe that there is only one the absolute and the absolute has a will and others believe the same but the absolute has no will. Both of these beliefs are based on deduction as Karen aptly pointed out. Michael The question then becomes, does the eternal, God or IT, being the one and only will, (if you believe in oneness) have the freedom to express it's will? If you believe so, then there is free will.
|
|