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Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2013 18:03:03 GMT -5
Greetings.. Experiences don't free anybody from traps. If they're woo woo mind state experiences, they ARE traps. If you mean normal experiences, this is what leads to illusions/false beliefs in the first place. Eventually, experience will show us the futility of what we believe to provide permanent fulfillment, and this may open the door to the possibility of questioning those beliefs. Says the you who claims 'you' have the only keys to getting out of the traps, sounds a bit too self serving.. suppose everyone just works in a unified cooperative effort to create a present experience free from suffering? suppose nobody buys into your belief-ideology that experiences lead to illusions.. suppose people simply work together to live happy harmonious lives? It is the ideology and belief peddlers that have screwed-up the processes of clarity and cooperation.. question your own beliefs, Phil, really.. Be well.. Right, lets all just work together to live happy harmonious lives. Don't you think that would have to begin with you putting your sword back in it's sheath and tossing out the idea that you need to "give what you get"? I can talk about this in whatever context you're capable of operating in. So the harmony you seek begins with you and spreads outward to your relationships. Are your condescending, fault finding, accusing, demeaning, dismissing comments here conducive to your goal or not?
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 25, 2013 20:31:46 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Says the you who claims 'you' have the only keys to getting out of the traps, sounds a bit too self serving.. suppose everyone just works in a unified cooperative effort to create a present experience free from suffering? suppose nobody buys into your belief-ideology that experiences lead to illusions.. suppose people simply work together to live happy harmonious lives?
It is the ideology and belief peddlers that have screwed-up the processes of clarity and cooperation.. question your own beliefs, Phil, really..
Be well.. Right, lets all just work together to live happy harmonious lives. Don't you think that would have to begin with you putting your sword back in it's sheath and tossing out the idea that you need to "give what you get"?
I can talk about this in whatever context you're capable of operating in So the harmony you seek begins with you and spreads outward to your relationships. Are your condescending, fault finding, accusing, demeaning, dismissing comments here conducive to your goal or not?Hi E: First, you flip the context of my post, rather than address your attachment to your agenda, start there.. you continue to twist every discussion into your agenda to convert 'persons' into non-persons', the same flaw of all major religions, ignoring what 'is' in favor of what is 'desired'.. What you characterize as my "condescending, fault finding, accusing, demeaning, dismissing comments" is somewhat accurate, but yes it is conducive to my goal.. it is coaxing you from your attachments and into the light of clarity, revealing your inconsistencies and your unsupportable beliefs by comparison with simplicity and 'that which is'.. I have never seen you discuss openly, honestly, respectfully, and in a format where you must face reality, but.. i will give you the opportunity to prove you can, the opportunity to have an open honest discussion where the language is used in the context of common meanings, as understood by the common person, not spiritual mumbo-jumbo and woo-woo, just 'good ol' guys and gals' talking about what Life 'is', and how to help our brothers and sisters enjoy this Life.. whaddayasay? Be well..
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Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2013 20:54:39 GMT -5
Greetings.. Right, lets all just work together to live happy harmonious lives. Don't you think that would have to begin with you putting your sword back in it's sheath and tossing out the idea that you need to "give what you get"?
I can talk about this in whatever context you're capable of operating in So the harmony you seek begins with you and spreads outward to your relationships. Are your condescending, fault finding, accusing, demeaning, dismissing comments here conducive to your goal or not? Hi E: First, you flip the context of my post, rather than address your attachment to your agenda, start there.. you continue to twist every discussion into your agenda to convert 'persons' into non-persons', the same flaw of all major religions, ignoring what 'is' in favor of what is 'desired'.. What you characterize as my "condescending, fault finding, accusing, demeaning, dismissing comments" is somewhat accurate, but yes it is conducive to my goal.. it is coaxing you from your attachments and into the light of clarity, revealing your inconsistencies and your unsupportable beliefs by comparison with simplicity and 'that which is'.. I have never seen you discuss openly, honestly, respectfully, and in a format where you must face reality, but.. i will give you the opportunity to prove you can, the opportunity to have an open honest discussion where the language is used in the context of common meanings, as understood by the common person, not spiritual mumbo-jumbo and woo-woo, just 'good ol' guys and gals' talking about what Life 'is', and how to help our brothers and sisters enjoy this Life.. whaddayasay? Be well.. I don't have an agenda or attachments, which is why I'm able to shift into your context of harmony among persons. What I said about it doesn't contain any spiritual mumbo jumbo and woo woo. Almost nothing of what I say does. Why won't you address it? There seems to be an inconsistency between your talk of harmony, and your walk of the warrior.
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 25, 2013 23:52:26 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Hi E: First, you flip the context of my post, rather than address your attachment to your agenda, start there.. you continue to twist every discussion into your agenda to convert 'persons' into non-persons', the same flaw of all major religions, ignoring what 'is' in favor of what is 'desired'.. What you characterize as my "condescending, fault finding, accusing, demeaning, dismissing comments" is somewhat accurate, but yes it is conducive to my goal.. it is coaxing you from your attachments and into the light of clarity, revealing your inconsistencies and your unsupportable beliefs by comparison with simplicity and 'that which is'.. I have never seen you discuss openly, honestly, respectfully, and in a format where you must face reality, but.. i will give you the opportunity to prove you can, the opportunity to have an open honest discussion where the language is used in the context of common meanings, as understood by the common person, not spiritual mumbo-jumbo and woo-woo, just 'good ol' guys and gals' talking about what Life 'is', and how to help our brothers and sisters enjoy this Life.. whaddayasay? Be well.. I don't have an agenda or attachments, which is why I'm able to shift into your context of harmony among persons. What I said about it doesn't contain any spiritual mumbo jumbo and woo woo. Almost nothing of what I say does. Why won't you address it? There seems to be an inconsistency between your talk of harmony, and your walk of the warrior. No, Phil, just no.. it's your fantasy, the one you hope will come true by repeating it.. you affirm your attachment to the belief about non-duality each time you try to advance your agenda of converting 'persons' into what you believe are 'no-persons'.. and, that all goes away when you find clarity, just 'let go'.. i'm sure it must feel scary to you, but try it.. Are you willing to have "an open honest discussion where the language is used in the context of common meanings, as understood by the common person, not spiritual mumbo-jumbo and woo-woo, just 'good ol' guys and gals' talking about what Life 'is', and how to help our brothers and sisters enjoy this Life"?? If so, i will address it.. whaddayasay?? Be well..
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Post by enigma on Feb 26, 2013 2:08:28 GMT -5
Greetings.. I don't have an agenda or attachments, which is why I'm able to shift into your context of harmony among persons. What I said about it doesn't contain any spiritual mumbo jumbo and woo woo. Almost nothing of what I say does. Why won't you address it? There seems to be an inconsistency between your talk of harmony, and your walk of the warrior. No, Phil, just no.. it's your fantasy, the one you hope will come true by repeating it.. you affirm your attachment to the belief about non-duality each time you try to advance your agenda of converting 'persons' into what you believe are 'no-persons'.. and, that all goes away when you find clarity, just 'let go'.. i'm sure it must feel scary to you, but try it.. Are you willing to have "an open honest discussion where the language is used in the context of common meanings, as understood by the common person, not spiritual mumbo-jumbo and woo-woo, just 'good ol' guys and gals' talking about what Life 'is', and how to help our brothers and sisters enjoy this Life"?? If so, i will address it.. whaddayasay?? Be well.. Sorry, but it doesn't sound like it's a game I wanna play. First we would have to resolve the whole story you have about me not being open and honest, and having an agenda of conversion and beliefs and attachments, and somehow I don't think that story will ever change. You're free to believe whatever you want, and you're even free to repeat your story over and over in hopes of convincing others, but how could I have an open, honest discussion with you based on those lies?
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 26, 2013 9:48:59 GMT -5
Greetings.. No, Phil, just no.. it's your fantasy, the one you hope will come true by repeating it.. you affirm your attachment to the belief about non-duality each time you try to advance your agenda of converting 'persons' into what you believe are 'no-persons'.. and, that all goes away when you find clarity, just 'let go'.. i'm sure it must feel scary to you, but try it.. Are you willing to have "an open honest discussion where the language is used in the context of common meanings, as understood by the common person, not spiritual mumbo-jumbo and woo-woo, just 'good ol' guys and gals' talking about what Life 'is', and how to help our brothers and sisters enjoy this Life"?? If so, i will address it.. whaddayasay?? Be well.. Sorry, but it doesn't sound like it's a game I wanna play. First we would have to resolve the whole story you have about me not being open and honest, and having an agenda of conversion and beliefs and attachments, and somehow I don't think that story will ever change. You're free to believe whatever you want, and you're even free to repeat your story over and over in hopes of convincing others, but how could I have an open, honest discussion with you based on those lies? And that's the thing.. even given the opportunity to engage in an open honest discussion where the language is used in the context of common meanings, as understood by the common person, where we could resolve these issues, where you could reveal the accuracy of what you say in an open public discussion.. you choose to escape, to run away from revealing the 'truth' you 'say' you pursue at all costs.. a classic Phroggy Phil enigma.. Be well..
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Post by Beingist on Feb 26, 2013 12:46:19 GMT -5
Sorry, but it doesn't sound like it's a game I wanna play. First we would have to resolve the whole story you have about me not being open and honest, and having an agenda of conversion and beliefs and attachments, and somehow I don't think that story will ever change. You're free to believe whatever you want, and you're even free to repeat your story over and over in hopes of convincing others, but how could I have an open, honest discussion with you based on those lies? And that's the thing.. even given the opportunity to engage in an open honest discussion where the language is used in the context of common meanings, as understood by the common person, where we could resolve these issues, where you could reveal the accuracy of what you say in an open public discussion.. you choose to escape, to run away from revealing the 'truth' you 'say' you pursue at all costs.. a classic Phroggy Phil enigma.. Be well.. That's one heck of a projection you got, there.
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 26, 2013 14:13:04 GMT -5
Greetings.. And that's the thing.. even given the opportunity to engage in an open honest discussion where the language is used in the context of common meanings, as understood by the common person, where we could resolve these issues, where you could reveal the accuracy of what you say in an open public discussion.. you choose to escape, to run away from revealing the 'truth' you 'say' you pursue at all costs.. a classic Phroggy Phil enigma.. Be well.. That's one heck of a projection you got, there. It is an accurate accounting of the existent situation.. it is exactly what it 'is'.. Be well..
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Post by Beingist on Feb 26, 2013 14:44:17 GMT -5
Greetings.. That's one heck of a projection you got, there. It is an accurate accounting of the existent situation.. it is exactly what it 'is'.. Be well.. 'What Is', is ineffable, and cannot be described. Even arisha sez that.
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Post by silence on Feb 26, 2013 14:54:38 GMT -5
Greetings.. No, Phil, just no.. it's your fantasy, the one you hope will come true by repeating it.. you affirm your attachment to the belief about non-duality each time you try to advance your agenda of converting 'persons' into what you believe are 'no-persons'.. and, that all goes away when you find clarity, just 'let go'.. i'm sure it must feel scary to you, but try it.. Are you willing to have "an open honest discussion where the language is used in the context of common meanings, as understood by the common person, not spiritual mumbo-jumbo and woo-woo, just 'good ol' guys and gals' talking about what Life 'is', and how to help our brothers and sisters enjoy this Life"?? If so, i will address it.. whaddayasay?? Be well.. Sorry, but it doesn't sound like it's a game I wanna play. First we would have to resolve the whole story you have about me not being open and honest, and having an agenda of conversion and beliefs and attachments, and somehow I don't think that story will ever change. You're free to believe whatever you want, and you're even free to repeat your story over and over in hopes of convincing others, but how could I have an open, honest discussion with you based on those lies? At this point I would just be making sure Tzu doesn't get access to your home address or phone number.
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Post by enigma on Feb 26, 2013 20:06:01 GMT -5
Sorry, but it doesn't sound like it's a game I wanna play. First we would have to resolve the whole story you have about me not being open and honest, and having an agenda of conversion and beliefs and attachments, and somehow I don't think that story will ever change. You're free to believe whatever you want, and you're even free to repeat your story over and over in hopes of convincing others, but how could I have an open, honest discussion with you based on those lies? At this point I would just be making sure Tzu doesn't get access to your home address or phone number. There's a reason we have a moat around our castle, and why we don't feed the aligators much. ;D
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 26, 2013 21:37:07 GMT -5
Greetings.. Sorry, but it doesn't sound like it's a game I wanna play. First we would have to resolve the whole story you have about me not being open and honest, and having an agenda of conversion and beliefs and attachments, and somehow I don't think that story will ever change. You're free to believe whatever you want, and you're even free to repeat your story over and over in hopes of convincing others, but how could I have an open, honest discussion with you based on those lies? At this point I would just be making sure Tzu doesn't get access to your home address or phone number. LOL.. nope, E's replies are their own justice, he keeps revealing how little he actually believes his own illusions.. but, the offer is genuine and sincere.. i would welcome a open and hones discussion with E, and.. as you can see, he will create more illusions to avoid such an encounter.. Be well..
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Post by laughter on Feb 26, 2013 21:48:56 GMT -5
wow, ok, this latest entry ... just was hard to find a logical cut-off. well, anyway, I know that it's a big snoozer for most 'round here but I just couldn't resist: Q: Is the Universe a product of the senses?
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Q: The sciences have made much progress. We know the body and the mind much better than our ancestors did. Your traditional way, describing and analyzing mind and matter, is no longer valid.
Niz: But where are your scientists with their sciences? Are they not again images in your own mind?
Q: Here lies the basic difference! To me they are not my own projections. They were before I was born and shall be there when I am dead.
Niz: Of course. Once you accept time and space as real, you will consider yourself minute and short-lived. But are they real? Do they depend on you or you on them? The society that I grew up in and see all around me is dominated by a materialistic worldview formed by skepticism ... the sweep of history demonstrates that skepticism, through the vehicle of the scientific method, is very effective as the basis of a process of forming beliefs that are resistant to skepticism. This worldview is what produces a misconception, as stated by the questioner, that is actually an act of self-deception by the rational, reasoning mind. The fact is that science got to the point early last century where it demonstrated the failure of objectivity. Niz: Once you accept time and space as real, you will consider yourself minute and short-lived. But are they real? Do they depend on you or you on them? IOW: What Niz implies here is right, and although most people who operate based on assumptions that are in turn the product of second-hand knowledge passed down to them from the high priesthood of the sciences are unaware of this, time and space, and all matter are entirely subjective -- and the source of that assertion are those high-priest scientists themselves! This isn't the only example of "spiritualists" arriving at a conclusion via intuition that scientists arrive at via trial-and-error , and not entirely because of a common cultural assumption (monism) -- but the failure of the entire basis of the material monistic structure under the relentless assault of rationalism, namely: objectivity, is just so delicious an irony that the contemplation of it never fails to evoke a good laugh. It's the second ultimate practical joke, the first of course being the ineffability of THIS. The two are obviously related. That said though, the bulk of what the vast majority of "spiritualists" have to say still strikes me as just a bunch of derivative wacko delusion. (just sayin! ).
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 26, 2013 22:37:23 GMT -5
Greetings.. wow, ok, this latest entry ... just was hard to find a logical cut-off. well, anyway, I know that it's a big snoozer for most 'round here but I just couldn't resist: Q: Is the Universe a product of the senses?
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Q: The sciences have made much progress. We know the body and the mind much better than our ancestors did. Your traditional way, describing and analyzing mind and matter, is no longer valid.
Niz: But where are your scientists with their sciences? Are they not again images in your own mind?
Q: Here lies the basic difference! To me they are not my own projections. They were before I was born and shall be there when I am dead.
Niz: Of course. Once you accept time and space as real, you will consider yourself minute and short-lived. But are they real? Do they depend on you or you on them? The society that I grew up in and see all around me is dominated by a materialistic worldview formed by skepticism ... the sweep of history demonstrates that skepticism, through the vehicle of the scientific method, is very effective as the basis of a process of forming beliefs that are resistant to skepticism. This worldview is what produces a misconception, as stated by the questioner, that is actually an act of self-deception by the rational, reasoning mind. The fact is that science got to the point early last century where it demonstrated the failure of objectivity. Niz: Once you accept time and space as real, you will consider yourself minute and short-lived. But are they real? Do they depend on you or you on them? IOW: What Niz implies here is right, and although most people who operate based on assumptions that are in turn the product of second-hand knowledge passed down to them from the high priesthood of the sciences are unaware of this, time and space, and all matter are entirely subjective -- and the source of that assertion are those high-priest scientists themselves! This isn't the only example of "spiritualists" arriving at a conclusion via intuition that scientists arrive at via trial-and-error , and not entirely because of a common cultural assumption (monism) -- but the failure of the entire basis of the material monistic structure under the relentless assault of rationalism, namely: objectivity, is just so delicious an irony that the contemplation of it never fails to evoke a good laugh. It's the second ultimate practical joke, the first of course being the ineffability of THIS. The two are obviously related. That said though, the bulk of what the vast majority of "spiritualists" have to say still strikes me as just a bunch of derivative wacko delusion. (just sayin! ). Hi Laughter: Second-hand knowledge is second-hand knowledge, your priest is Niz, others' is AE, and, i'm not interested in priests.. i'm interested in clarity, though.. and, it strikes me odd that you are critical of scientist-priests who strive to reduce ambiguity, and fond of mind-priests who tell people to imagine they aren't real, all while you operate in time-space while explaining that time-space is 'subjective' (it's relative, actually).. by the way, how's that not real time-space thingy working-out for Niz (April 17, 1897 – September 8, 1981).. i see neither priest-perspectives as wholly accurate, though.. it's all way more simple than the 'minding' that is being passed-off as 'true'.. And, for the record, i understand time and space as actual and existent, and i definitely do not consider myself as minute or short lived.. Niz missed that understanding completely, his beliefs about time and space were unrelated to people's awareness, they were just his isolated separate neuroses about his existence.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Feb 26, 2013 22:40:08 GMT -5
Greetings.. At this point I would just be making sure Tzu doesn't get access to your home address or phone number. LOL.. nope, E's replies are their own justice, he keeps revealing how little he actually believes his own illusions.. No, I don't. You're just imagining that. No, it's not. You just want a sparring partner. You make such an encounter impossible.
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