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Post by Reefs on Feb 25, 2013 0:18:40 GMT -5
The one who desires to ride his camel out to the oasis to fill his canteen will lose that desire to ride his camel out to the oasis when the oasis is seen to be a mirage. Why would you want to ride your camel out to a mirage? How can you quench your thirst from a mirage? What would happen to your desire to fill your canteen at the mirage? How could you continue to desire it once you know it is a mirage? No matter how many other desires you have, that one is gone, isn't it? The desire to go fill your canteen at the mirage is gone, isn't it? Do you keep going out to the mirage to fill your canteen? Why would you do that? How would that work in your world? Well, let me take a guess: 1) because you only care about what exists and see the difference between what exist in its own right and what doesn't exist in its own right as some kind of delusion? 2) because you believe in a philosophy that forces you to embrace everything as real? 3) because you are a sand eater?
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 25, 2013 1:32:21 GMT -5
Greetings.. That's good. I like that. Obviously, I didn't realize it was a metaphor. As Homer would say, "I'm waaay ahead of you." Yes, I'm a simple one. It wasn't a metaphor. I'm a simpler one. So.. while y'all were philosophizing, i hopped on the camel and rode out to where there was a belief about a mirage or an oasis or maybe a metaphor.. now, i know.. and, rather than find out for yourselves, you will keep telling each other stories or convincing others to join the debate, but.. the clear and simple choice is to find out for yourself.. Be well..
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Post by justlikeyou on Feb 25, 2013 1:38:02 GMT -5
Detachment does not lead to insight. Many years ago my father assigned me the task of installing the locksets on all the doors of the new motel addition he built. In the first room I removed the lockset from the package and attempted to insert the mechanisms into the pre-cut holes in the door. I guess I expected them to just fit together but they didn't and I soon found myelf frustrated all to hell. Finally I became very still, bent down to observe what the deal was and saw that all I had to do was align the parts in the proper configuration and they would fit together perfectly relieving me of the frustrating problem. I learned right there and then that if a problem is observed properly, the solution presents itself. Still, quiet, detached observation can indeed lead to insight .
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Post by laughter on Feb 25, 2013 1:55:08 GMT -5
I f you can see your thoughts you have already found your Watcherhood. Nisargadatta also said: "It is the task of the watcher to understand and thereby eliminate the person." He is suggesting that it is the job of the Watcher to see through the belief systems that make up the illusory person. How? By simple, detached, observation of ones mind for as long as it takes. Sounds too simplistic doesn't it? But is it? Nisargadatta says about this: "Find out. Even if I tell you that you are the witness, the silent watcher, it will mean nothing to you, unless you find the way to your own being." (yup)∞Niz more often than not expresses his core prescription as the suggestion to watch thought, to cultivate the witness. That said, of course he spends just as much time telling people that there's nothing to do and noone to do it, nowhere to go and nothing to know. It's almost as if he's saying ... "well, you've got nothing better to do since there's no seeking to be done so you might as well watch the thinker".
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Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2013 2:32:53 GMT -5
The one who desires to ride his camel out to the oasis to fill his canteen will lose that desire to ride his camel out to the oasis when the oasis is seen to be a mirage. Why would you want to ride your camel out to a mirage? How can you quench your thirst from a mirage? What would happen to your desire to fill your canteen at the mirage? How could you continue to desire it once you know it is a mirage? No matter how many other desires you have, that one is gone, isn't it? The desire to go fill your canteen at the mirage is gone, isn't it? Do you keep going out to the mirage to fill your canteen? Why would you do that? How would that work in your world? Well, let me take a guess: 1) because you only care about what exists and see the difference between what exist in its own right and what doesn't exist in its own right as some kind of delusion? 2) because you believe in a philosophy that forces you to embrace everything as real? 3) because you are a sand eater? All valid possibilities, though sand eaters don't last long in the desert. It's mostly about cleaning up the gene oasis.
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Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2013 2:46:06 GMT -5
Greetings.. It wasn't a metaphor. I'm a simpler one. So.. while y'all were philosophizing, i hopped on the camel and rode out to where there was a belief about a mirage or an oasis or maybe a metaphor.. now, i know.. and, rather than find out for yourselves, you will keep telling each other stories or convincing others to join the debate, but.. the clear and simple choice is to find out for yourself.. Be well.. Well, my point had nothing to do with how best to find out. My point was about the effect finding out has on your desire to ride your camel out to the oasis. Now that you've seen the truth and put your camel to bed, you don't have a desire to go out there anymore, right? You've seen through the illusion and now you're done with it. You didn't have to meditate or practice non-attachment or deal with the need to attach.
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Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2013 2:56:39 GMT -5
Detachment does not lead to insight. Many years ago my father assigned me the task of installing the locksets on all the doors of the new motel addition he built. In the first room I removed the lockset from the package and attempted to insert the mechanisms into the pre-cut holes in the door. I guess I expected them to just fit together but they didn't and I soon found myelf frustrated all to hell. Finally I became very still, bent down to observe what the deal was and saw that all I had to do was align the parts in the proper configuration and they would fit together perfectly relieving me of the frustrating problem. I learned right there and then that if a problem is observed properly, the solution presents itself. Still, quiet, detached observation can indeed lead to insight . Behaving like a mature, rational adult can help solve problems, yes. When matters get a bit more metaphysical, seeing through the illusion is required to remove attachment to outcome.
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Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2013 3:01:57 GMT -5
Niz more often than not expresses his core prescription as the suggestion to watch thought, to cultivate the witness. That said, of course he spends just as much time telling people that there's nothing to do and noone to do it, nowhere to go and nothing to know. It's almost as if he's saying ... "well, you've got nothing better to do since there's no seeking to be done so you might as well watch the thinker". I'd say the witnessing position is necessary for a person to become conscious, and from that (mentally contrived) position, those other realizations can potentially occur. Some peeps can't see that there is no separate, volitional person or that what is being sought is what is seeking, because they are unconscious.
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 25, 2013 10:37:42 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. So.. while y'all were philosophizing, i hopped on the camel and rode out to where there was a belief about a mirage or an oasis or maybe a metaphor.. now, i know.. and, rather than find out for yourselves, you will keep telling each other stories or convincing others to join the debate, but.. the clear and simple choice is to find out for yourself.. Be well.. Well, my point had nothing to do with how best to find out. My point was about the effect finding out has on your desire to ride your camel out to the oasis. Now that you've seen the truth and put your camel to bed, you don't have a desire to go out there anymore, right? You've seen through the illusion and now you're done with it. You didn't have to meditate or practice non-attachment or deal with the need to attach.Well, my point has nothing to do with how best to find out. My point is about the effect of being trapped in the endless chatter of philosophizing, preaching, and illusions that distract the experiencer from the simple experiences that free them from the traps and the trappers.. your mind-play resembles Kabuki theater as you parade your drama of illusionary distractions, like your story about 'desire', you are avoiding the direct solution.. which is, letting the seeker find out for themselves.. by enticing people into your drama, you keep your self-image intact, using their attention to decorate your personal mindscape, rather than actually help the seeker find clarity.. Be well..
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Post by justlikeyou on Feb 25, 2013 11:22:57 GMT -5
When matters get a bit more metaphysical, seeing through the illusion is required to remove attachment to outcome. Who sees if not the Watcher? Questioner: Since I cannot improve sattva (clarity), am I to deal with tamas and rajas only? How do I deal with them? Nisargadatta: By watching their influence in you and on you. Be aware of them in operation, watch their expression in your thoughts, words and deeds, and gradually their grip on you will lessen and the clear light of sattva will emerge. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Questioner: I can see the mechanism of my confusion, but I do not see my way out of it. Nisargadatta: The very examination of the mechanism shows the way. After all, your confusion is only in your mind, which so far has never rebelled against confusion and never got to grips with it. It rebelled only against pain. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Questioner: Well, you told me that I am the Supreme Reality. I believe you. What next is there for me to do? Nisargadatta: You must watch yourself continuously - particularly your mind - moment by moment, missing nothing. This witnessing is essential for the separation of the self from the not-self. -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post by laughter on Feb 25, 2013 11:47:28 GMT -5
Niz more often than not expresses his core prescription as the suggestion to watch thought, to cultivate the witness. That said, of course he spends just as much time telling people that there's nothing to do and noone to do it, nowhere to go and nothing to know. It's almost as if he's saying ... "well, you've got nothing better to do since there's no seeking to be done so you might as well watch the thinker". I'd say the witnessing position is necessary for a person to become conscious, and from that (mentally contrived) position, those other realizations can potentially occur. Some peeps can't see that there is no separate, volitional person or that what is being sought is what is seeking, because they are unconscious. Yes there is great value in directly pointing at the "Truth". Life happens, realization happens, life continues, often in that order. From corresponding on this over the past few years, I imagine a state of affairs that includes the conclusion that even after realization, and specifically even after realization that was catalyzed by direct pointing, simply directly pointing doesn't necessarily result in a non-mental realization about the chimera of separation. As a matter of fact, the very question of the separate, volitional person can actually serve as the grain of sand around which the wonderful lustrous pearl of ego can form up around. What I see Niz doing is prescribing a very specific carrot ... and direct pointing. He describes reality as "entirely consistent and absolutely paradoxical". Niz also nods to your point about the "mental contrivance" of the witness, and about how this too, is something impermanent.
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Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2013 13:44:27 GMT -5
Greetings.. Well, my point had nothing to do with how best to find out. My point was about the effect finding out has on your desire to ride your camel out to the oasis. Now that you've seen the truth and put your camel to bed, you don't have a desire to go out there anymore, right? You've seen through the illusion and now you're done with it. You didn't have to meditate or practice non-attachment or deal with the need to attach.Well, my point has nothing to do with how best to find out. My point is about the effect of being trapped in the endless chatter of philosophizing, preaching, and illusions that distract the experiencer from the simple experiences that free them from the traps and the trappers.. your mind-play resembles Kabuki theater as you parade your drama of illusionary distractions, like your story about 'desire', you are avoiding the direct solution.. which is, letting the seeker find out for themselves.. by enticing people into your drama, you keep your self-image intact, using their attention to decorate your personal mindscape, rather than actually help the seeker find clarity.. Be well.. Experiences don't free anybody from traps. If they're woo woo mind state experiences, they ARE traps. If you mean normal experiences, this is what leads to illusions/false beliefs in the first place. Eventually, experience will show us the futility of what we believe to provide permanent fulfillment, and this may open the door to the possibility of questioning those beliefs.
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Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2013 13:49:15 GMT -5
When matters get a bit more metaphysical, seeing through the illusion is required to remove attachment to outcome. Who sees if not the Watcher? Questioner: Since I cannot improve sattva (clarity), am I to deal with tamas and rajas only? How do I deal with them? Nisargadatta: By watching their influence in you and on you. Be aware of them in operation, watch their expression in your thoughts, words and deeds, and gradually their grip on you will lessen and the clear light of sattva will emerge. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Questioner: I can see the mechanism of my confusion, but I do not see my way out of it. Nisargadatta: The very examination of the mechanism shows the way. After all, your confusion is only in your mind, which so far has never rebelled against confusion and never got to grips with it. It rebelled only against pain. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Questioner: Well, you told me that I am the Supreme Reality. I believe you. What next is there for me to do? Nisargadatta: You must watch yourself continuously - particularly your mind - moment by moment, missing nothing. This witnessing is essential for the separation of the self from the not-self. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- That's good advice. It's what I refer to as noticing.
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Post by zendancer on Feb 25, 2013 14:27:14 GMT -5
Greetings.. Well, my point has nothing to do with how best to find out. My point is about the effect of being trapped in the endless chatter of philosophizing, preaching, and illusions that distract the experiencer from the simple experiences that free them from the traps and the trappers.. your mind-play resembles Kabuki theater as you parade your drama of illusionary distractions, like your story about 'desire', you are avoiding the direct solution.. which is, letting the seeker find out for themselves.. by enticing people into your drama, you keep your self-image intact, using their attention to decorate your personal mindscape, rather than actually help the seeker find clarity.. Be well.. Experiences don't free anybody from traps. If they're woo woo mind state experiences, they ARE traps. If you mean normal experiences, this is what leads to illusions/false beliefs in the first place. Eventually, experience will show us the futility of what we believe to provide permanent fulfillment, and this may open the door to the possibility of questioning those beliefs. I would qualify the second statement somewhat. We refer to cosmic-consciousness experiences with the somewhat dirisive and dismissive phrase "woo woo experiences" on this forum, but such experiences often come accompanied by one or more significant realizations. Yes, they often become a trap because the person, who is thought to be the experiencer of the experience, starts seeking similar experiences in the mistaken notion that such experiences will lead to a permanent cosmic consciousness state rather than a temporary one. My own response to hearing about such experiences is to say, "Congratulations, you've been given a glimpse of something beyond the ordinary consensus trance. That's great, but you can have a hundred similar experiences and still remain stuck in the illusion that you are a person having those experiences. Keep attention focused upon "what is" without expectation, and eventually the illusion of "me" will collapse. If you have any questions, become still, and answers will appear." There are a few rare cases where woo-woo experiences are so deep that freedom is the result, but they are few and far between. It should also be noted that there is a wide range of different realizations that can occur as various illusions are penetrated. Selfhood is usually the last to go because it is such a deep structure of mind. A person can see through the illusion of time and space, for example, and still think that a person saw through the illusion. ;D
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 25, 2013 17:52:54 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Well, my point has nothing to do with how best to find out. My point is about the effect of being trapped in the endless chatter of philosophizing, preaching, and illusions that distract the experiencer from the simple experiences that free them from the traps and the trappers.. your mind-play resembles Kabuki theater as you parade your drama of illusionary distractions, like your story about 'desire', you are avoiding the direct solution.. which is, letting the seeker find out for themselves.. by enticing people into your drama, you keep your self-image intact, using their attention to decorate your personal mindscape, rather than actually help the seeker find clarity.. Be well.. Experiences don't free anybody from traps. If they're woo woo mind state experiences, they ARE traps. If you mean normal experiences, this is what leads to illusions/false beliefs in the first place. Eventually, experience will show us the futility of what we believe to provide permanent fulfillment, and this may open the door to the possibility of questioning those beliefs. Says the you who claims 'you' have the only keys to getting out of the traps, sounds a bit too self serving.. suppose everyone just works in a unified cooperative effort to create a present experience free from suffering? suppose nobody buys into your belief-ideology that experiences lead to illusions.. suppose people simply work together to live happy harmonious lives? It is the ideology and belief peddlers that have screwed-up the processes of clarity and cooperation.. question your own beliefs, Phil, really.. Be well..
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