dave
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Post by dave on Aug 11, 2010 9:19:34 GMT -5
Bear with me, please, as I quote a longish passage from U.G. Krishnamurti, but it seems to completely turn my way of thinking on it's head (and jibes with stuff from McKenna, Scoma, et al that I've had difficulty understanding):
"Look here, I want to experience God, truth, reality or what you will, so I must understand the nature of the experiencing structure inside of me before I deal with all that. I must look at the instrument I am using. You are trying to capture something that cannot be captured in terms of your experiencing structure, so this experiencing structure must not be there in order that the other thing may come in. What that is, you will never know. You will never know the truth, because it's a movement. It's a movement! You cannot capture it, you cannot contain it, you cannot express it. It's not a logically ascertained premise that we are interested in. So, it has to be your discovery. What good is my experience? We have thousands and thousands of experiences recorded -- they haven't helped you. It's the hope that keeps you going -- "If I follow this for another ten years, fifteen years, maybe one of these days I will...." because hope is the structure."
And from Wikipedia: "Hope is a belief in a positive outcome related to events and circumstances in one's life."
So, if I understand this correctly, as long as one has 'hope' for enlightenment, one is automatically preventing it. Is that right?
One must literally become hope-less in order to transcend the normal 'experiencer' paradigm??
If so, that would explain the whole 'dark night of the soul'/ surrender/ giving up / pathless path seemingly so necessary to this whole 'enlightenment' 'thing'...
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Post by charliegee on Aug 11, 2010 9:28:20 GMT -5
good point ... hopelessness is more like it ... more conducive to surrender ...
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Post by zendancer on Aug 11, 2010 10:09:55 GMT -5
Dave: This can be taught about using either approach--hope or hopelessness. For most people hopelessness is probably the best approach. "You" will never attain what "you" are looking for. The realization of why this is so is what YOU are looking for.
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dave
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by dave on Aug 11, 2010 10:14:22 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that is what he's saying.
Which makes me wonder about Dante's 'Divine Comedy'...
There's a book by Ramona Fradon called 'The Gnostic Faustus' where she makes good argument for the famous play being a cleverly concealed description of the path to 'heaven'/ 'enlightenment' rather than a Christian cautionary tale.
Having read that book, I have to wonder if the 'Divine Comedy' may not be similar, with the famous inscription over the gate to Hell ('Abandon Ye Hope, All Who Enter Here') actually telling the reader that if one 'wants' to reach 'Heaven', he must first give up all 'hope' of ever getting there in the first place...
Now I gotta' read Dante...
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dave
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Posts: 79
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Post by dave on Aug 11, 2010 10:19:08 GMT -5
Dave: This can be taught about using either approach--hope or hopelessness. For most people hopelessness is probably the best approach. "You" will never attain what "you" are looking for. The realization of why this is so is what YOU are looking for. Thanks for the confirmation, Zendancer. I've not read your book yet (but plan to shortly), but was this true for you? Along the same lines: I wonder if story of Moses searching for the Promised Land, but dying before 'he' got there, might not also be an allegory for 'somebody' not ever really being able to reach 'enlightenment' because 'they' must necessarily be 'gone' for that to 'happen'.... |
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Post by zendancer on Aug 11, 2010 10:41:20 GMT -5
Dave: My experiences ran the entire gamut. After an initial experience of cosmic consciousness and subsequent return to relative normalcy, I felt confident that I would get enlightened quickly and be able to remain in a state of heavenly bliss. LOL. Later, I was horrified to realize that "I" wasn't in control, but I was such an optimist that I was sure there was some secret something I could do (double LOL) to get where I wanted to go. I tried everything and I failed at everything. I finally gave up and decided to simply abide in the here and now forever and keep attention focused on the actual. Only then (and quite mysteriously) was the see-er able to see that the idea of selfhood was only an idea. Seeing the idea as an idea, only, was what ended the attachment to the idea.
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Post by question on Aug 11, 2010 17:40:05 GMT -5
It's impossible to truly lose hope as long as enlightened beings walk the earth.
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dave
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Posts: 79
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Post by dave on Aug 12, 2010 1:33:13 GMT -5
It's impossible to truly lose hope as long as enlightened beings walk the earth. Not that dead guys are all knowing, but - U. G. said that was part of the problem: The enlightened had nothing they could 'give', and that even if they could the unenlightened could not 'take' it, as the very nature of giving or taking precluded the possibility of enlightenment 'happening'. He said even seeing the enlightened as examples was merely another roadblock (and the reason for the springing up poor imitations such as religion, cults, etc...) Damned if you do, damned if you don't. No way out. But perhaps no way out is the only 'way' 'in' ... |
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Post by question on Aug 12, 2010 5:15:22 GMT -5
Maybe "no way out" is quite simply "no way out".
Enlightened beings can't help, but they still are enlightened, by random chance or divine grace, who knows. So even if they can't help, it's still impossible to eliminate the hope (even if it's only unconscious) to equally be blessed with this random chance or divine grace.
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Post by enigma on Aug 12, 2010 16:27:54 GMT -5
Maybe "no way out" is quite simply "no way out". Enlightened beings can't help, but they still are enlightened, by random chance or divine grace, who knows. So even if they can't help, it's still impossible to eliminate the hope (even if it's only unconscious) to equally be blessed with this random chance or divine grace. I don't have a lot of trouble with that, but I don't see it as random. I don't see anything as random. |
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dei
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Post by dei on Aug 12, 2010 16:36:31 GMT -5
I am always reminded of the story of Pandora's Box... when she opened the box she let all the evils out into the world. She closed the box, trapping only one thing in it: Hope. Thus Hope is an "evil" that resides in us.
If you must 'hope' then at least take it to the level of trust; as hope it does nothing but cause suffering.
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Post by enigma on Aug 12, 2010 22:30:23 GMT -5
I wonder if 'hope' has given up on the idea of ever being let out of the box. Hmmmmm......
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Post by loverofall on Aug 13, 2010 6:41:03 GMT -5
Hopeless or hopeful. Interesting emotions driven by conceptions.
Hopeless is nothing I do matters and hopeful is everything I do matters.
I love to feel hopeless and I love to feel hopeful.
Just two more emotions to experience on the rollercoaster.
How hopeless can I make myself feel right now.
How hopeful can I make myself feel right now.
What ever is arising, I want. Gameover.
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dave
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by dave on Aug 13, 2010 11:04:08 GMT -5
I am always reminded of the story of Pandora's Box... when she opened the box she let all the evils out into the world. She closed the box, trapping only one thing in it: Hope. Thus Hope is an "evil" that resides in us. If you must 'hope' then at least take it to the level of trust; as hope it does nothing but cause suffering. That take on the story occurred to me, too and I think you're right - 'hope' isn't going help us, and we've certainly got nothing to lose by trusting in the process. 'God' knows what a mess I've made of things trying to make things happen. and how powerless I can feel 'hoping' things will turn out 'my' way... Most of the really good/helpful things in my life have just landed in my lap. |
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