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Post by hazxan on Jul 25, 2010 6:49:46 GMT -5
Sometimes I wonder if "awakening" could be interpreted as a "breakdown" in some circumstances. For example, I've read psychologists describe Eckhart Tolle's awakening as a breakdown after intense stress and a long period of depression. U.G. Krishnamurti's 'calamity' sounds very much like a breakdown, even from the words he uses himself to describe it! And the other side of the coin, reading Pirsigs description of his breakdown in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". In other circumstances, could be described as an awakening. Unfortunately, his family interpreted it as an unacceptable breakdown and sent him off for brain frazzling ECT. There is so much invested in functioning in a particular way in everyday life. To be detached from that, to not identify with it, is regarded as quite insane by the majority. It seems you have to be in a fortuitous position to be able to live like it and not get sent for treatment ! And of course, we all have to continue making a living somehow. Without disciples to feed and shelter us, or a lucrative writing deal, most of us are at a big disadvantage as awakening over the weekend would be a disaster as we still have to go sleepwalk to the office on Monday! It occurs to me that U.G.Krishnamurti and Eckhart Tolle had a big advantage in that they did not have any dependents at the time of their awakening. I recall Barry Long just cleared off and left his family behind, for which he has been criticized. On the other hand, I have children that depend on me so spending a year sat on a park bench is not an option. Much as I'd love to do it  Robert Pirsig, in contrast, had a wife and young children to support, hence he was 'forced' to keep up the day job. Does anyone think that our physical life circumstances have to be arranged in a way convenient to allow a more enlightened life? Specifically, if you have to hold down a routine day job to support yourself and dependents, does the mind have a 'fail safe' mechanism that prevents us awakening as it would present itself as a breakdown? Is their a pattern of people needing to be free of dependants in orderto make the breakthrough? |
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Post by skyblue on Jul 25, 2010 7:47:52 GMT -5
Hazxan: Read Happiness Beyond Thought by Gary Weber. He had a wife, children and a corporate job while awakening and he did quite well with all of it.
You can go to his web site and email him to ask questions.
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Post by ravenscroft on Jul 25, 2010 8:08:40 GMT -5
It occurs to me that U.G.Krishnamurti and Eckhart Tolle had a big advantage in that they did not have any dependents at the time of their awakening. not totally true UG left a wife and kids broke and never spoke to them again but can't have cake and eat it too - you get to please everyone in the dream or you get to be true - this stuff is about having the courage to make the hard choices - no one can make those choices for you |
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Post by unveilable on Jul 25, 2010 8:44:42 GMT -5
In the beginning I tried to create a sensory deprivation environment for about 5 days in the hopes it would induce a breakdown and consequent awakening. All that happened was that I got a little depressed...my standard response to anything at that time. lol
Nisargadatta seemed to do fine with a job and family though didnt he spend some time away?
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Post by hazxan on Jul 25, 2010 11:19:10 GMT -5
It occurs to me that U.G.Krishnamurti and Eckhart Tolle had a big advantage in that they did not have any dependents at the time of their awakening. not totally true UG left a wife and kids broke and never spoke to them again He left his wife in 1961 and his calamity was in 1967, when he was hanging out with Valentine. So it is true that he had no real dependants at time of his calamity. |
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Post by hazxan on Jul 25, 2010 11:24:13 GMT -5
Hazxan: Read Happiness Beyond Thought by Gary Weber. He had a wife, children and a corporate job while awakening and he did quite well with all of it. You can go to his web site and email him to ask questions. I will do just that! The impact of having to work at something 'soul destroying' to make a living is a related question, but I was thinking of starting another thread just for that, if it hasn't been done already. Here, I'm pondering more on whether there could be a connection between awakening and what 'typical' people call a breakdown. Albeit a breakdown of a certain type. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 25, 2010 14:19:48 GMT -5
Hazxan: You raised numerous issues in this post, but the short answer to your main question is no.
Having said that, let's consider some peripheral issues. The number one factor people list as preceding mystical experiences is depair. People often have breakthroughs in their understanding when they become overburdened with worries and anxiety. This is not the same as enlightenment, but mystical experiences can often be a first step on the path to enlightenment.
Many people have mental breakdowns as a result of too much thinking which leads to too little sleep. The mind speeds up so much that it can't stop thinking and this leads to sleep deprivation. This is one of the reasons that military organizations use sleep deprivation on prisoners--to break them down. Nietsche and Kierkegard come to mind as people who either went crazy or almost went crazy as a result of thinking too incessantly about existential issues. This was probably also a factor in Pirsig's case, and I had a friend to whom this also happened.
Marriage is often affected by the search for truth because people who become consumed with the need to understand reality often focus on the issue so intensely that family needs get neglected. I have known several people whose marriages broke up due to one partner's intense pursuit of the truth.
Although the Buddha and many other famous individuals left their families to find answers, I suspect that an equal or larger number of seekers stay with their families while searching for and finding the truth. I personally know several married people who became enlightened and remained with their families throughout the entire journey.
Is it easier to get enlightened on a mountaintop? Not necessarily. This is usually just another idea that needs to be discarded. People get enlightened in every imaginable situation. A recent book "Everyday Enlightenment" records the stories of seven ordinary people in different life situations who became enlightened. Some were married, most worked at regular jobs, and one guy was a high-powered business executive. There are no rules that apply to this. Anybody can get enlightened in any situation.
For the person seeking truth truth becomes all important, and this may significantly affect his/her life in unknowable ways. Gangaji once talked about this during a satsang and said, essentially, "Some people will accept you and some won't. Some friends will stay and some will go. Families will adjust in different ways to how you, yourself, change as a result of following this path. Every day will be different and unpredictable." That sums it up pretty well.
Usually, when one feels that a work or life situation is preventing progress on this path, it is because he/she hasn't yet accepted reality as it is. The mind is still attached to a lot of ideas, and those ideas are like blinders to what is happening in the present moment. Imagine someone stuck in a traffic jam. If they are thinking, "I need to be somewhere else right now," that thought keeps them from realizing that they are exactly where they have to be at that moment--stuck in a traffic jam. It keeps them from relaxing into the isness of what is.
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waddicalwabbit
Full Member
Let's all go down the wabbit hole
Posts: 125
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Post by waddicalwabbit on Jul 25, 2010 16:42:42 GMT -5
A breakdown has worked pretty well for me in causing me to examine every aspect of my breathing existence.  I'm not suggesting you jettison job and family and all that. I think it's true that those who are in the midst of 'normal society' can have 'breakthroughs' (whatever those might look like, normally perhaps just a questioning of 'reality' and perhaps a call to be present more often). I think it was Nisargaddata who said something like offload everything except what it takes to do the bare minimum for your family and yourself so that you can spend the rest of your energy on whatevertheheck this is. Coulda been Ramana though and I know I'm paraphrasing badly. That makes sense to me. I have a few friends who have had relatively brief experiences of nonduality, been enthralled with it and then have pretty quickly slipped back into creating as many distractions in their lives as possible though they THINK they're pounding away at becoming more frequently aware. |
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Post by hazxan on Jul 31, 2010 16:38:56 GMT -5
Usually, when one feels that a work or life situation is preventing progress on this path, it is because he/she hasn't yet accepted reality as it is. The mind is still attached to a lot of ideas, and those ideas are like blinders to what is happening in the present moment. Imagine someone stuck in a traffic jam. If they are thinking, "I need to be somewhere else right now," that thought keeps them from realizing that they are exactly where they have to be at that moment--stuck in a traffic jam. It keeps them from relaxing into the isness of what is. Thanks for your reply Zendancer. Maybe I have got too hung up, or 'stuck' as you say, in the belief that my external circumstances prevent enlightenment. Also, I would guess many who became 'enlightened' didn't conform to what the majority would judge to be a productive member of the community. Or maybe not? I have a few friends who have had relatively brief experiences of nonduality, been enthralled with it and then have pretty quickly slipped back into creating as many distractions in their lives as possible though they THINK they're pounding away at becoming more frequently aware. Yes, that's what's happened to me. It has sometimes lasted for a few days, but always ended with me trying to 'think' my way back into that state and failing for many months and years. Exactly as you say, I THINK I'm becoming more aware, or striving that way, only it isn't really happening. What to do in the meantime? |
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Post by enigma on Jul 31, 2010 17:39:47 GMT -5
"Yes, that's what's happened to me. It has sometimes lasted for a few days, but always ended with me trying to 'think' my way back into that state and failing for many months and years. Exactly as you say, I THINK I'm becoming more aware, or striving that way, only it isn't really happening. What to do in the meantime?"
The funny thing is, 'becoming more aware' actually translates to 'becoming empty', which can change one's approach from trying to know something, to what some have called 'taking out the trash'. This is Jed McKennas 'spiritual autolysis' and is actually the result of self inquiry, and is the focus of Neti-Neti. (Not this, not that) It's basically the looking (beyond mind, very subtle) to see if what is believed to be so, is really so. It's ultimately a simple noticing that what was assumed to be the case, isn't....so much.
That's not what I was going to say, though. What was I going to say?...........Oh, well, maybe it was a lie. Hehe.
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Post by robert on Jul 31, 2010 17:57:20 GMT -5
i have wasted a great deal of time on this particular issue, and i finally came to see that my essence didn't change with the different situations. it's easy to tell yourself that you must be alone to walk this path and for me that was just ego babble, a way of proving that i didn't have the perfect situation so why try. (what an easy out for an ego that wants to stay in charge) the essence isn't going to change but perceived blocks to the path can u.g. was in his words starving and living off of the streets. an empty stomach can become a huge hurdle in a hurry.
the people in your life will change no matter what you decide to do although your essence will always be. good luck.
robert
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Post by enigma on Jul 31, 2010 18:51:25 GMT -5
I went on a 5 year retreat in virtual solitude at one point. The insights came fast and furious but....i also got fat and lazy and broke, and it was time to cash in my karma points. What I learned from losing 60 pounds and getting into shape so that I could handle 3 jobs at once, was every bit as useful as those 5 years in retreat.
It comes back to intention. I remember how bright the moon was the night I went out to the garden and said "Okay, God, it's your game and I'm in. Lets do this." (That's my enigmatic version of a commitment to Truth at all cost) Whatever follows from that cannot be imperfect. In this game, you don't often get what you want, but you always get what you need. Sometimes you need to be free of encumbrances, and sometimes you need to be broken and brought to your knees.
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I'm not suggesting you jettison job and family and all that. I think it's true that those who are in the midst of 'normal society' can have 'breakthroughs' (whatever those might look like, normally perhaps just a questioning of 'reality' and perhaps a call to be present more often). 
