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Post by enigma on Jul 26, 2010 1:26:38 GMT -5
Yeah, that DOES seem to be what happens, and I wouldn't assign the undoing to the mind at all. As I see it, mind really has no solid basis for what is believed, and it imagines it must have because, like, why would everybody believe it if it wasn't true?! Hehe. No two year old ever walked up to mom and dad and said, 'Hey guys, lets talk about this 'me' idea. Are you really sure about this?' Most of what is believed is never really questioned because the interest is in whether we can get something out of it, not whether it's actually true. For somebody to ask us to look and see if it's really true is a little like stopping a good movie in the middle and asking the people sitting on the couch if what they're enjoying is really any more than light patterns on a screen. Almost everybody will tell you to start the dang player and sit down and shut up, which is what folks on spiritual forums say to me all the time, in their own way. So, the point is that, since there really is no foundation for mind's conceptual reality to begin with, if there really is an interest in noticing this, it can be noticed. It's not mind, however, that notices anything. enigma, a couple of things here for clarity... when you say most things are not questioned because the interest is whether we can get anything out of it or not... the "we" you are referencing must be the "identity" or sense of self, correct? and that is its function, to promote self survival. Interesting that to believe in itself would be a benefit to promote the survival of the body that it is dependent on for its existance. When you say that if there really is an interest in noticing this, it can be noticed, you make it sound like there is a will in action, something that has interest, something capable of choosing to notice or be interested or not. Was this your intention? If so, what do you mean exactly? Sorry if this sounds like nit-picking but it is so easy to miss the meaning in the writing or reading of these posts Hi Burt It IS tricky, so I try to be careful about the words here. There is an interest. It can be seen that there is an interest. It cannot be denied that there is an interest. This is not a matter of misinterpretation or an illusion. It's much like saying, there is perception. Nothing is implied about perceiver or perceived or choosing or anything. No implications. There is interest. That's all. I simply say if there is an interest present in noticing, it will be noticed. If you want to assign this interest to something, we can discuss that, but it wasn't my intention to do that.
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lobo
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Post by lobo on Jul 26, 2010 9:10:52 GMT -5
enigma, yes that is clear, thanks for taking the time and effort to take it down to that level. No I do not want to add meaning to it. I was just trying to get the meaning clear.
Just like anything else that appears just is, this interest you are reporting just is. This kind of simple clarity comes and goes for me.
What has been interesting lately is the subtle movement of belief. There is a change in feeling or quality of experience when the belief changes. I am not doing it. It is not thought doing it either, not conciously. And it is the chenge that is noticeable.
In the end, all understanding and explanations are for the mind. No need to elaborate. Just more mind stuff.
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Post by joker80420 on Jul 26, 2010 12:07:05 GMT -5
I is the illusion......I AM is the none illusion....i am....we are....one with everything....the illusion is thinking we are separate.....the truth is we are not separate only in human form....once realized that we are one spirit with one energy and one common goal is when we are truly aware......
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Post by klaus on Jul 27, 2010 20:37:25 GMT -5
enigma,
Interesting reply.
That's my point. What needs to transpire in that mind mirror in order for attention to be turned away from the mirror?
What dynamic is involved for there to be attention(not to be confused with awareness) from consciousness to Consciousness.
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Post by enigma on Jul 27, 2010 22:26:12 GMT -5
enigma, Interesting reply. That's my point. What needs to transpire in that mind mirror in order for attention to be turned away from the mirror? What dynamic is involved for there to be attention(not to be confused with awareness) from consciousness to Consciousness. Suffering, longing, disinterest?
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lobo
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Post by lobo on Jul 28, 2010 8:27:12 GMT -5
Hi Burt It IS tricky, so I try to be careful about the words here. There is an interest. It can be seen that there is an interest. It cannot be denied that there is an interest. This is not a matter of misinterpretation or an illusion. It's much like saying, there is perception. Nothing is implied about perceive or perceived or choosing or anything. No implications. There is interest. That's all. I simply say if there is an interest present in noticing, it will be noticed. If you want to assign this interest to something, we can discuss that, but it wasn't my intention to do that. hey enigma, my initial response to this was glad the communication was cleared up and what you intended to say was clear. But something about the content sounds a little off. This interest you are talking about, it is from the conditioned mind. Interest is focused, like this is interesting, not that, and it is attractive and implies some intention behind it. Interest is the byproduct of some conditioned belief or thought structure. The mind gets interested, not pure awareness. Perception is neutral. All kinds of interest or meaning or interpretation from the mind can follow. To assign a conditioned response such as interest to unconditioned, pure awareness is a mistake or misinterpretation. So if interest is present, it is a conditioned response of thought or belief. It is not a quality of pure awareness which is completely open and non-discriminating.
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Post by ravenscroft on Jul 28, 2010 8:41:58 GMT -5
Maybe this just a hang up for me burt..but does impure awareness exist?
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lobo
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Post by lobo on Jul 28, 2010 9:05:21 GMT -5
Maybe this just a hang up for me burt..but does impure awareness exist? lol, ya I know, no, I wouldn't put a negation in front of the word and call it something else.... it is pretty clear what conditioned mind is, all thought, constructs, meanings, etc.... and unconditioned, or pure awareness is used in language for that which is not conditioned, or unconditioned. It is like a name for that which cannot be named. Have you noticed that any affirmative description of it is incomplete? and that is it most easily described by what it is not? And it is not an it. It is pre-it LOL Any description implies distinction, or that biggie word, separation LOL So words will always fail.
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Post by ravenscroft on Jul 28, 2010 9:41:39 GMT -5
Maybe this just a hang up for me burt..but does impure awareness exist? lol, ya I know, no, I wouldn't put a negation in front of the word and call it something else.... it is pretty clear what conditioned mind is, all thought, constructs, meanings, etc.... and unconditioned, or pure awareness is used in language for that which is not conditioned, or unconditioned. It is like a name for that which cannot be named. Have you noticed that any affirmative description of it is incomplete? and that is it most easily described by what it is not? And it is not an it. It is pre-it LOL Any description implies distinction, or that biggie word, separation LOL So words will always fail. great answer I agree
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Post by enigma on Jul 28, 2010 23:18:30 GMT -5
Hi Burt It IS tricky, so I try to be careful about the words here. There is an interest. It can be seen that there is an interest. It cannot be denied that there is an interest. This is not a matter of misinterpretation or an illusion. It's much like saying, there is perception. Nothing is implied about perceive or perceived or choosing or anything. No implications. There is interest. That's all. I simply say if there is an interest present in noticing, it will be noticed. If you want to assign this interest to something, we can discuss that, but it wasn't my intention to do that. hey enigma, my initial response to this was glad the communication was cleared up and what you intended to say was clear. But something about the content sounds a little off. This interest you are talking about, it is from the conditioned mind. Interest is focused, like this is interesting, not that, and it is attractive and implies some intention behind it. Interest is the byproduct of some conditioned belief or thought structure. The mind gets interested, not pure awareness. Perception is neutral. All kinds of interest or meaning or interpretation from the mind can follow. To assign a conditioned response such as interest to unconditioned, pure awareness is a mistake or misinterpretation. So if interest is present, it is a conditioned response of thought or belief. It is not a quality of pure awareness which is completely open and non-discriminating. Yup, I mentioned that in passing somewhere. It wasn't my intention to assign the interest to 'pure awareness'. I wouldn't really say that it's 'from' the conditioned mind, since mind isn't sourcing anything, but maybe through mind. As such, it's not really mind that has the interest either. Maybe we could say awareness forms this interest when it looks through mind?
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Post by enigma on Jul 28, 2010 23:21:32 GMT -5
Maybe this just a hang up for me burt..but does impure awareness exist? Yeah, it's awareness with little icky specks and stuff floating around in it.
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