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Post by Portto on Jul 16, 2010 16:28:53 GMT -5
Through mind, there's a bit of difficulty with this, since mind is the imagined experiencer of everything. Mind believes that without an experiencer, there can be nothing of interest, and yet it happened without a 'me' to experience it, so how could this be so? Maybe because we can't find the one who is doing all this. We can't believe there's no one doing all the stuff that is observed.
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Post by peanut on Jul 16, 2010 16:47:16 GMT -5
Hi..wrote yesterday but don't see the post so if this is a repeat i apologize. Have had quite a few direct experiences ...one lasted for an entire morning , the rest were for moments. Each time there is an indescribable feeling of joy. Hard to put into words. Reality is the same yet different.
Enigma...yes..thanks. There has been trying for a repeat of that morning but trying doesn't work. Am finding that relaxing and slowing down helps. Being in nature is very helpful. Many of you who post can really write clearly..thank goodness. i have not gotten there yet. All i can say is there is a definite knowing when the direct experience occurs.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 16, 2010 17:21:41 GMT -5
E: Yes, precisely. I had an initial cosmic consciousness experience that lasted more than two days. As soon as mind returned, and "I" tried to own the experience, it began to dissipate. The more that "I" worked to hold onto it, the faster it went away. It was "my" trying to keep it that drove it away! It took another fifteen years of trying to get it back before THAT saw through the illusion of what mind was trying to do. The joke was on "me."
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Post by enigma on Jul 16, 2010 21:08:46 GMT -5
Through mind, there's a bit of difficulty with this, since mind is the imagined experiencer of everything. Mind believes that without an experiencer, there can be nothing of interest, and yet it happened without a 'me' to experience it, so how could this be so? Maybe because we can't find the one who is doing all this. We can't believe there's no one doing all the stuff that is observed. Actually, i think mind is pretty tolerant of the mysterious as long as it has complete control over it. hehe. When that which is happening is labeled as desirable, the thought naturally occurs, 'how do I keep it from going away?' The desire and the question draws attention into thought and deeper into identification, and away from that which is actually desired. What needs to be clearly seen is that Presence requires 'my' absence, as does Love, joy and Peace. (Same, same) For most, that's a bitter pill to swallow.
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Post by Portto on Jul 17, 2010 13:48:48 GMT -5
Actually, i think mind is pretty tolerant of the mysterious as long as it has complete control over it. hehe. Yes. However, mind can only control its own imaginations. What needs to be clearly seen is that Presence requires 'my' absence, as does Love, joy and Peace. (Same, same) For most, that's a bitter pill to swallow. Then how come presence is always the case?
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Post by enigma on Jul 17, 2010 15:49:19 GMT -5
Actually, i think mind is pretty tolerant of the mysterious as long as it has complete control over it. hehe. Yes. However, mind can only control its own imaginations. What needs to be clearly seen is that Presence requires 'my' absence, as does Love, joy and Peace. (Same, same) For most, that's a bitter pill to swallow. Then how come presence is always the case? Not really sure i understand the question, but the 'me' to which i referreth is mind/ego.
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Post by Portto on Jul 17, 2010 16:04:35 GMT -5
Not really sure i understand the question, but the 'me' to which i referreth is mind/ego. My bad. I wasn't clear. I was over-theorizing. Thanks for your posts!
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lobo
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Post by lobo on Jul 17, 2010 16:33:14 GMT -5
Klaus, can you answer the questions I asked? do you include thoughts as experiences? can a thought, or a dream be experienced by your definition here? I think it makes a difference in how the question would be answered.
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Post by klaus on Jul 17, 2010 18:35:51 GMT -5
How many of those on the forum have directly experienced "I" as an illusion or is it just a belief you have that "I" is an illusion? Klaus, that question is not so simple as it seems at first. It is loaded with assumptions. You have received interpretations of experiences, and I was about to add one, but these more fundamental questions come up for me. Your use if capital I. Does that have some specific meaning, like some use i and I with different meanings? At this point I am assuming not. First, are you asking if one can tell the difference between direct experience and thinking about experience? Can you experience a thought? how about a dream? If you experience a thing as an illusion, does that mean the sense perception has been misinterpreted? Do you include a misinterpreted thought as an illusion, which therefore can be experienced? Burt, "I" and "i" have no meaning other then grammatical. I think my question speaks for itself. And it is a simple question. Yes or no.
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Post by klaus on Jul 17, 2010 18:50:45 GMT -5
Klaus, can you answer the questions I asked? do you include thoughts as experiences? can a thought, or a dream be experienced by your definition here? I think it makes a difference in how the question would be answered. I'm paraphrasing this based on what I remember someone once said. How would cognition operate in such a waythat it is independent of the "I" who experiences things, yet still allow Consciousness to be perceived and remembered by the individual.
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lobo
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Post by lobo on Jul 19, 2010 10:06:04 GMT -5
dang klaus, that is very far from a simple or straight answer.
just one question for you
within the context of your simple question, do you consider thoughts experiences?
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Post by klaus on Jul 19, 2010 16:05:47 GMT -5
dang klaus, that is very far from a simple or straight answer. just one question for you within the context of your simple question, do you consider thoughts experiences? Hi burt, yes, no, maybe. you seem to have an answer at the ready no matter what my response. so let's cut to the chase.
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lobo
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Post by lobo on Jul 19, 2010 19:22:45 GMT -5
dang klaus, that is very far from a simple or straight answer. just one question for you within the context of your simple question, do you consider thoughts experiences? Hi burt, yes, no, maybe. you seem to have an answer at the ready no matter what my response. so let's cut to the chase. so your answer to that simple question about if you consider thoughts experiences is complete ambiguity? I don't have any answer ready. What chase are you cutting to? You are basically refusing to provide an answer. It is really a simple question, but will affect the answer. Why will you not answer it directly?
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Post by klaus on Jul 21, 2010 14:40:20 GMT -5
burt,
"I" is a thought, can thought experience thought?
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lobo
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Post by lobo on Jul 21, 2010 18:18:10 GMT -5
klaus, ok I see where you are coming from. Can I ask what you mean by illusion? A missunderstood perception? Wouldn't that be experienced? Are you operating from the assumption that all thought is illusion?
From the view of the identity, thought is projection. From the view of conciousness, or awareness, everything is an experience it seems. From that view the I is experienced as an object. To call that view "I" would be nonsense.
Sometimes this is experienced very clearly in the morning upon waking from deep dreamless sleep. There is conciousness. All seems very ordinary and normal. Then the identity "wakes up" and the I slowly begins to operate. It feels like it is all a dream right then, but the word illusion doesn't seem right. It is percieved or experienced, but no experiencer, just conciousness taking it in.
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