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Post by unveilable on Jul 17, 2010 6:06:11 GMT -5
I dont have anything new to add to this thread. Im just trying face what is happening. There is fear, dread and indifference as well as a sense that there is no possible way to turn back nor would I ultimately want to. Turn back to an exhausting charade? Ive sensed the inherent emptiness in my life for years, its just now that I am owning up to it.
There is some general falling away and a sadness when I sense my loved one is less real. Lately there are moments I feel lost between two worlds, subtly invisible and a dread that these feelings will only intensify. I also fear going insane for no good reason. Im guessing this is the mind sensing a decrease in influence so creates a story that I could 'lose my mind'.
Thanks though. It does seem that it is all a story when compared to my experience in the present moment.
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Post by robert on Jul 17, 2010 7:08:35 GMT -5
i realized that in my own experience the ego was using the fear in a much more subtle way than just the outward appearance of fear. because what's the worst that can happen in any situation, death? well, the worst is on it's way right now. what the fear is doing is much more subtle it's focusing the attention based on a false emotion away from the task at hand which for me at least is waking up. it seems odd to me that we can see so many things in life as false, yet we have trouble seeing fear as false? just some observations. r.
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Post by unveilable on Jul 17, 2010 7:49:43 GMT -5
Hi robert, My mind is fairly loaded down with teachings and pointers so at this point I am unsure what is true and what is concept. I think Scott Kiloby has said essentially that if it can be named then its just another appearance in Awareness. In my world that translates to 'The mind is a sucky interface with the truth'. I just take for granted that things like fear are going to arise and fall like waves particularly since Im still identifying with the me!
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waddicalwabbit
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Let's all go down the wabbit hole
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Post by waddicalwabbit on Jul 17, 2010 8:18:24 GMT -5
Hi all. Yep. kinda me too. I have every right to be absolutely terrified and somehow I just can't get it up for that. I just don't care enough, seems like too much trouble. I also have every right to be really really sad, but it feels like that's pointless too. Maybe I'll go to town to the coffee shop and just experience whatever is happening there.
I have NO IDEA what the oneness (sometimes referred to as 'the relentless') wants from me right now. Sure is a beautiful planet, sure is quiet here, a sea of mist making the pasture in the bottom land invisible this morning, a zillion birds flit from tree to tree and a doe out my window sampling the local flora, candle lit beside me on the desk.
Hang in there Robert. Sounds like you're doing a great job of what is a very challenging situation. Sometimes I embrace the fear when i have the presence to just stop and take a few breaths, "OH, I know YOU! Come on in old friend, sit down, have a cup of tea, lets talk."
Course in Miracles has a little quote, "All healing is essentially the release from fear".
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lobo
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Post by lobo on Jul 17, 2010 9:52:24 GMT -5
I dont have anything new to add to this thread. Im just trying face what is happening. There is fear, dread and indifference as well as a sense that there is no possible way to turn back nor would I ultimately want to. Turn back to an exhausting charade? Ive sensed the inherent emptiness in my life for years, its just now that I am owning up to it. There is some general falling away and a sadness when I sense my loved one is less real. Lately there are moments I feel lost between two worlds, subtly invisible and a dread that these feelings will only intensify. I also fear going insane for no good reason. Im guessing this is the mind sensing a decrease in influence so creates a story that I could 'lose my mind'. Thanks though. It does seem that it is all a story when compared to my experience in the present moment. that is beautifull.... that simple recognition..... namaste my friend the stories, I could add mine, but they are all the same...few details or interpretations change, but it is all about the ego false self program trying to maintain control of the attention...... we all suffer, all born and die, this, right here, right now, this it is, this is all..... this process foes not make you special.....however peace
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Post by loverofall on Jul 17, 2010 11:26:18 GMT -5
There is fear, dread and indifference as well as a sense that there is no possible way to turn back nor would I ultimately want to. Turn back to an exhausting charade? Ive sensed the inherent emptiness in my life for years, its just now that I am owning up to it. There is some general falling away and a sadness when I sense my loved one is less real. Lately there are moments I feel lost between two worlds, subtly invisible and a dread that these feelings will only intensify. Unveilable, this might not feel like a great place but it is. These are very common emotions when control is being let go. I've noticed that the word dread pops up when deeper feelings are opening up which means to the ego the ability to feel deep emotional pain. Thats my experience. Doesn't change that all we ever need to do is sit and open up to whatever and allow without fueling. I like to fool around now and try to see if I can make a fearful or dreadful feeling intensify since the conditioned response of the mind is to stop the feeling.
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Post by loverofall on Jul 17, 2010 11:30:20 GMT -5
The no turning back probably is what causes dread. Seeing that death for the false self is inevitable would create dread. We dread things we cannot avoid that we PERCEIVE as bad.
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Post by unveilable on Jul 17, 2010 12:04:48 GMT -5
Hmmm yes dread is a significant sticking point with me. Dread and procrastination. It really bogs me down and I keep putting off really looking at it. How easy it is for me to pretend dread is not fear! The no turning back probably is what causes dread. Seeing that death for the false self is inevitable would create dread. We dread things we cannot avoid that we PERCEIVE as bad.
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lobo
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Post by lobo on Jul 17, 2010 12:18:57 GMT -5
Being present is fine. There can be no fear and no ego. In this, there is no 'you' that is willing to experience anything. This 'you' is not willing to experience anything. It's not true. enigma, what you have said is strictly correct, but its usefulness I call into question. It sounds like something the non-dual parrot would say while sitting on the shoulder of the non-dual pirate LOL arrrrgh! LOL being radically non-dual makes verbal communication difficult, it seems.... this is getting into semantics, possible hair splitting, and danger of falling into non-dual jibber-jabber.....LOL I feel like my language has been corrected by a non-dual english language teacher LOL but here goes... where is the attention right now? if it is reflecting on the self image, then now there is the sense of self active, ego active....one can experience fear now, because now is all there is. Right now, one may imagine and generate the fear reaction, believe it, interact with it in the imagination. It is mechanical. so this may be a fine point but it is more about how free the attention is right now using the shorthand "now" is more clearly stated as "completely free attention" which can only happen now, as with anything. One can only experience the unconditioned with free attention. The attention can be split so that the conditioned and unconditioned is experienced at the same time. Please don't go all "non-dual languagegy" on me here and say there is not a you to experience it. In that state of complete unconditioned awareness it is true, but the non-dual language contortions are too weird for me. So I will not use them. Please don't pick me apart for not using it. In the interest of clear communication, can we use normal language please? With that preliminary, here it is. There can be a you active experiencing fearlessness, just like there can be a you active experiencing fear, sadness, or whatever. It depends on the presence of self reflection. Being able to handle fear in the conditioned state is useful. It can be a part of a practice.......as layers of fear are exposed, recognized and allowed to dissolve. There is a practice for this that can be learned. If one were to say that being an ego, or having a self, or believing in a self is inherently a fearful state, that would be true in one sense. There will be a deep layer of believing in the self that if challenged will produce fear, the greatest fear possible, of non-existence. But this level is not always being activated, so fear may not be experienced by the sense of self right now. But the technique of being willing to experience whatever arises, now, and attention in the now as much as possible, eliminates fear on the conditioned level when it is activated, even if the attention is not completely free and unconditioned. note, I am using the word attention because I am not aware of a better one right now. Is awareness better? doesn't seem so, maybe attention in the sense of the verb like aware-ing? dunno There is a place for practice on the conditioning, for sure. This practice of working with fear can take one to the precipice of realizing that the only way to be completely free of fear is to not have a self, and this would be an experiential realization not a thought experiment. But to get there one has to pay attention to fear, deal with it, notice it is gone, until another layer is activated, and then the deepest layer of self-protection is confronted.....possibly many times, many times... Accessing unconditioned or non-dual awareness, completely free and open, great when it happens. But when it is impeded by fear this practice of recognition, facing with willingness, letting it be, not fighting it, is a useful one to lessen or dissolve the grip. From the state of lessened grip the barrier to freeing more and more attention is lessened.
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Post by synapticrythms on Jul 17, 2010 13:40:36 GMT -5
I know exactly what mansuit is talking about with this thread... that dread of the breaking apart. That dread is only experienced by the "_person with a name_" that "you" are in this realm of consciousness. That "you" doesn't even exist, so how can it experience? That is the question for me... one that I find being answered at deeper and deeper levels.
It is Consciousness itself making the game dramatic for Itself... wanting to identify fully with the actor on the stage in order to experience Itself. The play is not real, nor are the personalities upon the stage. The actor really isn't real either, just the observer in the seats... who is aware of the whole thing... the building, the stage, the seats, the smell of popcorn, the entire show of audience, play, and actor.
"The one became two. The two become three. The three become the ten thousand things." - Tao Te Ching
Right now, the "me" here is trying to stabilize in living in the chest, (as the quote from Rumi stated - loved it), until the chest drops away and all is free.
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Post by enigma on Jul 17, 2010 14:51:20 GMT -5
Being present is fine. There can be no fear and no ego. In this, there is no 'you' that is willing to experience anything. This 'you' is not willing to experience anything. It's not true. enigma, what you have said is strictly correct, but its usefulness I call into question. It sounds like something the non-dual parrot would say while sitting on the shoulder of the non-dual pirate LOL arrrrgh! LOL being radically non-dual makes verbal communication difficult, it seems.... this is getting into semantics, possible hair splitting, and danger of falling into non-dual jibber-jabber.....LOL I feel like my language has been corrected by a non-dual english language teacher LOL but here goes... where is the attention right now? if it is reflecting on the self image, then now there is the sense of self active, ego active....one can experience fear now, because now is all there is. Right now, one may imagine and generate the fear reaction, believe it, interact with it in the imagination. It is mechanical. so this may be a fine point but it is more about how free the attention is right now using the shorthand "now" is more clearly stated as "completely free attention" which can only happen now, as with anything. One can only experience the unconditioned with free attention. The attention can be split so that the conditioned and unconditioned is experienced at the same time. Please don't go all "non-dual languagegy" on me here and say there is not a you to experience it. In that state of complete unconditioned awareness it is true, but the non-dual language contortions are too weird for me. So I will not use them. Please don't pick me apart for not using it. In the interest of clear communication, can we use normal language please? With that preliminary, here it is. There can be a you active experiencing fearlessness, just like there can be a you active experiencing fear, sadness, or whatever. It depends on the presence of self reflection. Being able to handle fear in the conditioned state is useful. It can be a part of a practice.......as layers of fear are exposed, recognized and allowed to dissolve. There is a practice for this that can be learned. If one were to say that being an ego, or having a self, or believing in a self is inherently a fearful state, that would be true in one sense. There will be a deep layer of believing in the self that if challenged will produce fear, the greatest fear possible, of non-existence. But this level is not always being activated, so fear may not be experienced by the sense of self right now. But the technique of being willing to experience whatever arises, now, and attention in the now as much as possible, eliminates fear on the conditioned level when it is activated, even if the attention is not completely free and unconditioned. note, I am using the word attention because I am not aware of a better one right now. Is awareness better? doesn't seem so, maybe attention in the sense of the verb like aware-ing? dunno There is a place for practice on the conditioning, for sure. This practice of working with fear can take one to the precipice of realizing that the only way to be completely free of fear is to not have a self, and this would be an experiential realization not a thought experiment. But to get there one has to pay attention to fear, deal with it, notice it is gone, until another layer is activated, and then the deepest layer of self-protection is confronted.....possibly many times, many times...
Accessing unconditioned or non-dual awareness, completely free and open, great when it happens. But when it is impeded by fear this practice of recognition, facing with willingness, letting it be, not fighting it, is a useful one to lessen or dissolve the grip.
From the state of lessened grip the barrier to freeing more and more attention is lessened.I agree with the last part. What I was commenting on was your assertion that you can accept anything that comes along. Not imagining anything that you couldn't accept is not the same as being in a position to accept anything. The personal identity can never be in a position to accept whatever happens. I'm just saying it's not possible. There's nothing non-dual about it. If you think fears can be faced and dissolved from within this personal paradigm, that's not generally true either. Some fears come from misunderstandings, and yes, these can dissolve with understanding, and surrender happens, but something is always going to threaten the 'me'. The 'me' cannot be fearless. It is, in fact, highly vulnerable and existentially untenable. A fearless 'me' is a delusion having a delusion. The end of fear necessitates the end of the belief in the one fearing, which is the same one practicing fearlessness, so how is that going to work?
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lobo
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Post by lobo on Jul 17, 2010 17:55:44 GMT -5
[ I agree with the last part. What I was commenting on was your assertion that you can accept anything that comes along. Not imagining anything that you couldn't accept is not the same as being in a position to accept anything. The personal identity can never be in a position to accept whatever happens. I'm just saying it's not possible. There's nothing non-dual about it. If you think fears can be faced and dissolved from within this personal paradigm, that's not generally true either. Some fears come from misunderstandings, and yes, these can dissolve with understanding, and surrender happens, but something is always going to threaten the 'me'. The 'me' cannot be fearless. It is, in fact, highly vulnerable and existentially untenable. A fearless 'me' is a delusion having a delusion. The end of fear necessitates the end of the belief in the one fearing, which is the same one practicing fearlessness, so how is that going to work? It is interesting to me that you are so sure of your assertion here. Is there a part of your position you are theorizing? I think you are mistaken based on the way I read your words, although it may be another miscommunication. I don't have the time to go into it in all detail right now, but I can tell you from experience, with all certainty, that the only thing required to eliminate fear is to eliminate the future, which means to bring the attention completely into the present. This is not spiritual at all, just a reality. It happens. Being willing to face what is present is helpful in this process but I don't think it is actually necessary. It helps me sometimes. I'm not sure if you were referring to logical negation, but this is the the correct logical negation: if true=1 and 2 and 3 (as in self and future and thing feared) then not true=not 1 OR not 2 OR not 3 so eliminating future, or self, or the thing feared, just one of them does eliminate fear. It occurs in the present so even thinking about a possible future fear puts you back into fear. Eliminating fear happens now, the only time it can happen. The concept of fear not being gone forever is just another future based fear, and will not come up in this case of being completely present. It is possible to be without fear, right now, dreaming about something positive because right now, there is no fear, only the positive. But we know from experience that you cannot be completely positive forever, so some imagined thing one doesn't want will come along and fear arises. What is so hard about that to see? To think that fearlessness forever is it, just puts you back into fear. Simple, to me ;D Frankly I will have to go carefully through what you have said and compare with what I am trying to say and although it is interesting to do that, and I don't like hanging ends, I just don't have it in me right now to try and straighten this out. I'm going to go grill dinner and enjoy this fine summer evening hope you do the same
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Post by enigma on Jul 17, 2010 19:14:33 GMT -5
[ I agree with the last part. What I was commenting on was your assertion that you can accept anything that comes along. Not imagining anything that you couldn't accept is not the same as being in a position to accept anything. The personal identity can never be in a position to accept whatever happens. I'm just saying it's not possible. There's nothing non-dual about it. If you think fears can be faced and dissolved from within this personal paradigm, that's not generally true either. Some fears come from misunderstandings, and yes, these can dissolve with understanding, and surrender happens, but something is always going to threaten the 'me'. The 'me' cannot be fearless. It is, in fact, highly vulnerable and existentially untenable. A fearless 'me' is a delusion having a delusion. The end of fear necessitates the end of the belief in the one fearing, which is the same one practicing fearlessness, so how is that going to work? It is interesting to me that you are so sure of your assertion here. Is there a part of your position you are theorizing? I think you are mistaken based on the way I read your words, although it may be another miscommunication. I don't have the time to go into it in all detail right now, but I can tell you from experience, with all certainty, that the only thing required to eliminate fear is to eliminate the future, which means to bring the attention completely into the present. This is not spiritual at all, just a reality. It happens. Being willing to face what is present is helpful in this process but I don't think it is actually necessary. It helps me sometimes. I'm not sure if you were referring to logical negation, but this is the the correct logical negation: if true=1 and 2 and 3 (as in self and future and thing feared) then not true=not 1 OR not 2 OR not 3 so eliminating future, or self, or the thing feared, just one of them does eliminate fear. It occurs in the present so even thinking about a possible future fear puts you back into fear. Eliminating fear happens now, the only time it can happen. The concept of fear not being gone forever is just another future based fear, and will not come up in this case of being completely present. It is possible to be without fear, right now, dreaming about something positive because right now, there is no fear, only the positive. But we know from experience that you cannot be completely positive forever, so some imagined thing one doesn't want will come along and fear arises. What is so hard about that to see? To think that fearlessness forever is it, just puts you back into fear. Simple, to me ;D Frankly I will have to go carefully through what you have said and compare with what I am trying to say and although it is interesting to do that, and I don't like hanging ends, I just don't have it in me right now to try and straighten this out. I'm going to go grill dinner and enjoy this fine summer evening hope you do the same Sometimes it's necessary to be very clear that another is being heard before the other can really hear, and that seems to be the case here, at least to me. It wasn't my intention to bypass that requirement, it's just that it's only just now that it's getting clear that there is one. All fear is in the mind's projection into the future, and so if there is no projection into the future, there is no fear. Being 'fully present' does indeed eliminate fear completely. You're absolutely right that there is no fear in this, and therefore no suffering. Being present is a good exercise for the ego, but not with the goal of accomplishing being present. The benefit is to get a sense of what it's like to sorta be present, and then to notice why one cannot remain present. The false self is an idea, and is therefore contained fully in memory. In order for memory to be accessed, one must leave the present, since what is actually meant by being present is to not be in the mind with thoughts about past or future, including the entire thought matrix we call the personal self. As such, it's not possible for an individual to be present because the individual is not in the present and never was. It's kinda like enlightenment. The moment the individual declares he's present, he's not. If it were possible for a person (a set of thoughts) to not have a future thought, then there might be a person who can accept whatever happens, but that person idea is not separate from the person's fearful thoughts. One can resist thinking about fearful future thoughts quite nicely right up until one's meditation cushion catches on fire, then he can clearly see through that delusion. The goal is not to prevent such future thoughts as the mind/body can make good use of that process in determining the most effective way to douse a flaming meditation cushion. I will say that something which denotes a strong character is the ability to allow such thoughts while suspending the fear. Shortly after Marie and I got together, I had what some refer to as a Kundalini awakening. One day I sat down at my desk, and triggered something that resulted in 3 days of the most exquisite agony I ever experienced. Marie is a fiery, hot blooded Latin lady and the feeling, together with their expression is normally no more than a millimeter beneath the surface, but when she saw me literally screaming in agony, she instantly became focused and centered and did what needed to be done. The hysterics came later when there weren't more important things to attend to. If what you mean to say is that what you really are can be present and accept whatever happens, this is already the case and has always been the case, so the rest is irrelevant, and so we are talking about a practice the person is engaged in. Those enamored with the practice of being present don't really want to hear that the one practicing can't ever be present because this thought complex denies the very presence they seek. I don't know if it's some sort of logical negation formulation doohicky process, or some mysterious God-like knowingness, it just seems so blatantly obvious it can't be denied.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 17, 2010 19:33:46 GMT -5
Agreed. A person cannot be willing to face whatever happens unless there is a person, and this means that the whole thought process of how someone is willing to face some unknown something is an exercise in imagination.
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Post by enigma on Jul 17, 2010 20:19:16 GMT -5
Yes, very succinctly put. BTW, I'm seriously miffed that your karma points have increased more rapidly than mine. I once had a dream of beating you, but alas, I see the futility in that now.
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