|
Post by cabinintheforest on Jul 10, 2010 7:54:58 GMT -5
I looked over the main page today for this website and looked at all the Spiritual teachers. I have not until now actually fully gone through the list and looked at some of these people.
Just been through the list of highest rated Spiritual teachers.
Douglas Harding, Ramana Maharshi, Richard Rose, Franklin Merrell-Wolff etc...
Do you not find their books boring?
It's the same stuff over and over "Self-Realization" "I Am" "I AM" "I" "I" "IS" BLAH BLAH.. boring. Heard it read about it a million times. Do people even understand what these people were on about?
Does any of these peoples teachings actually help you at all? How will it help you in everyday life? Are any of these teachings actually Spiritual? Writing about "I AM" and all that stuff and "What IS" is that spirituality to you?
Why were these people "Enlightened"?.
Please answer. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jul 10, 2010 10:02:25 GMT -5
Cabin: Forget books and teachers. Ask yourself who concludes that things are "boring" or "exciting?" What is it that thinks "I am Cabin?" What is it that sees and reads these words? I can assure you that it is not "Cabin." "Cabin" is a figment of imagination. Simply take a look at what is looking.
Right now the mind of the body named "Cabin" is jumping around from idea to idea like a monkey jumping from limb to limb. Stop jumping for a moment and consider what sees all of those ideas.
|
|
|
Post by question on Jul 10, 2010 10:06:38 GMT -5
I'm with you on this one, Cabin. Formerly I thought that maybe these teachers aren't doing their best, but they probably are. It's me who isn't getting it.
Ego, mind, self, heart, I am, emptiness, absolute whatever... I have no idea what all that is.
I agree, their books are boring. Like reading mathematic formulas is boring if you're bad at math. I can't say that any of these books have actually helped me a bit. I have changed over the years, for the better I'd like to think (my family and friends would probably agree), but as far as I can see there was no conscious spiritual effort involved, just growing up. Another strange thing is that the few existential questions that got resolved in me weren't due to reading books or listening to spiritual teachers, I figured it all out by myself. Afterwards some teacher talks about what I've figured out and I think "oh yeah, I think I know what he's talking about", but it's never a 100% match. I don't really ever know exactly what the enlightened teachers or most people on this forum are talking about.
I'll say it like it is. I'm well educated and intelligent. But I still haven't got a clue, millions others like me equally don't. Other people who are more "simple minded" get it easily. That makes me believe that intelligence has nothing to do with it, maybe some people are simply spiritually talented, genetically predisposed to this. Or maybe people need to get a kind of initiation, have a first glimpse of the absolute self, before they can start to understand spiritual literature.
Another thing is the vocabulary used in the spiritual books. I don't get it, because I just can't relate to it. Scientific language is the easiest that I can relate to, that's why I long so much for this whole spiritual thing to be expressed in precise scientific language. Then maybe for the first time I could actually relate to it.
|
|
|
Post by unveilable on Jul 10, 2010 10:51:09 GMT -5
Dont even get me started about "I Am"! lol
What I know is that in my mid teens I began to look for the truth, mistrusted all who assumed the role of a truth knower but then came across the books of J. Krishnamurti. I probably liked him because his words seemed to affirm my beliefs and conclusions at the time. What I got from him was that there were others who also felt you ultimately needed to go it alone. In a small farm town pre-internet that was useful thing to get! Aside from Krishnamurti I considered Leo Buscaglia a teacher of sorts. Again what I got from it was that there were others out there who felt there was something Amazing about life. Sometimes people call it love.
I never thought a mere book could have any effect on me until I read Leadership and Self Deception by The Arbinger Institute a couple years ago. My life was distinctly different after completing that book and I think you might enjoy reading it. At that point I went from smoldering ashes to small flame.
It was while reading the last few pages of Richard Roses Albigen Papers that a different sort of shift happened. A remarkably dark emptiness came over me that seemed to be the beginning of a new phase. I became laughably indifferent towards virtually everything and felt a strong urge to move back to the country to be near my family. About 6 weeks later an integration took place. Im not sure the flame got bigger as much as it just changed color.
Now I just read this or that on occasion and go to talks to hear others. ZD and LM spoke highly of Byron Katie so I saw her, tried Wayne Liquoreman, Scott Kiloby and am looking forward to hearing Rupert Spira who is also an artist.
|
|
|
Post by karen on Jul 10, 2010 12:06:45 GMT -5
I realized a while ago that it's got nothing to do with spirituality. It's got to do with what is actual - not spiritual.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jul 10, 2010 12:24:38 GMT -5
I realized a while ago that it's got nothing to do with spirituality. It's got to do with what is actual - not spiritual. Karen: Yes. Stick with what is actual; it is what leads to what the word "spiritual" points to.
|
|
|
Post by question on Jul 10, 2010 12:45:05 GMT -5
I realized a while ago that it's got nothing to do with spirituality. It's got to do with what is actual - not spiritual. I agree. But the thing is that what's actual for me is nothing like how it's described by the famous teachers. I've been focusing on reality all my life (How am I not to? What else can possibly be done?) but nothing has changed, reality is still the same, it's still nothing like what Ramana and Nisargadatta are talking about.
|
|
|
Post by vacant on Jul 10, 2010 13:34:17 GMT -5
I realized a while ago that it's got nothing to do with spirituality. It's got to do with what is actual - not spiritual. Nice one!
|
|
|
Post by cabinintheforest on Jul 10, 2010 13:57:23 GMT -5
Who concludes that things are boring or exciting? Peoples minds. What is it that thinks i am cabin? My mind. What is it that sees and reads these words. My mind. Everything is based around Consciouness. It is the ground of all being. George Berkeley said only minds exists and ideas in those minds. God being the divine mind keeping everything in existance. You see i get so much out of philosophy and metaphysics. Most these people who are on the spiritual teacher website have not done anything for me and i do not understand what there talking about. Some of the people who have helped are people on this forum, i think they should be on the list
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jul 10, 2010 15:40:24 GMT -5
Cabin: You wrote, "Who concludes that things are boring or exciting? Peoples minds." Correct! "What is it that thinks i am cabin? My mind." Correct!
"What is it that sees and reads these words. My mind." Incorrect!
That which sees is beyond the mind. This website is devoted to helping people discover what the mind cannot grasp, so this is one area where the mind is useless. If you'll shift attention away from thoughts to "what is," you'll have a better chance of finding the ungraspable, unthinkable, unimaginable, incomprehensible, isness at the core of all being. One glimpse of THAT is worth more than all of the philosophy and metaphysics ever dreamed up anyone's mind.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jul 10, 2010 15:59:24 GMT -5
I realized a while ago that it's got nothing to do with spirituality. It's got to do with what is actual - not spiritual. I agree. But the thing is that what's actual for me is nothing like how it's described by the famous teachers. I've been focusing on reality all my life (How am I not to? What else can possibly be done?) but nothing has changed, reality is still the same, it's still nothing like what Ramana and Nisargadatta are talking about. Question: You wrote, "I've been focusing on reality all my life." I would seriously challenge the validity of this statement. I'm sure you think that you've been focusing on reality, but if you are like most people, then you focused on reality for only the first few years of your life. Gradually, and without your realization of what was happening, your attention shifted from reality to meta-realities--images, ideas, and symbols projected on the screen of the mind. I suspect that you began talking to yourself very early and began filtering everything you experienced through words and ideas. As an adult, I doubt that you can discern the difference between what you think is a tree and what a tree is. To see through the illusory world of thought is not easy, but remember, the thought-based world was not created in a single day. Most adults have practiced thinking and imagining ever since the age of about three, so it shouldn't be a surprise that it takes a lot of time and effort to reverse that process. How much time each day do you spend not-knowing, not-thinking, not-talking, or not imagining anything? Pay attention to what the mind does all day and then estimate the amount of time it spends in silent awareness. Such an exercise might be an eye-opener.
|
|
|
Post by loverofall on Jul 10, 2010 16:35:52 GMT -5
Cabin: Your mind has thoughts but who sees the thoughts? You could say I do. Well I is only another thought like any other word in our thoughts.
When you think "I", what does "I" represent specifically?
|
|
|
Post by loverofall on Jul 10, 2010 17:02:23 GMT -5
Question: I have a good friend that is extremely intelligent and loves philosophy. I thought he would enjoy this path but it completely stumps him. Actually, it scares him because he is so identified with his thinking. Emotions and intuition are suppressed by the conceptual mind.
The intuition/feeling/aware side is important to develop more. A fun practice is to wait for a decision to pop up instead of using thinking or planning.
What feeling makes you come to post in this board? What are you feeling right now? If these questions bother you or are difficult then thats where I would spend some time being aware of.
|
|
|
Post by question on Jul 10, 2010 17:03:25 GMT -5
I agree. But the thing is that what's actual for me is nothing like how it's described by the famous teachers. I've been focusing on reality all my life (How am I not to? What else can possibly be done?) but nothing has changed, reality is still the same, it's still nothing like what Ramana and Nisargadatta are talking about. Question: You wrote, "I've been focusing on reality all my life." I would seriously challenge the validity of this statement. I'm sure you think that you've been focusing on reality, but if you are like most people, then you focused on reality for only the first few years of your life. Gradually, and without your realization of what was happening, your attention shifted from reality to meta-realities--images, ideas, and symbols projected on the screen of the mind. I suspect that you began talking to yourself very early and began filtering everything you experienced through words and ideas. As an adult, I doubt that you can discern the difference between what you think is a tree and what a tree is. To see through the illusory world of thought is not easy, but remember, the thought-based world was not created in a single day. Most adults have practiced thinking and imagining ever since the age of about three, so it shouldn't be a surprise that it takes a lot of time and effort to reverse that process. How much time each day do you spend not-knowing, not-thinking, not-talking, or not imagining anything? Pay attention to what the mind does all day and then estimate the amount of time it spends in silent awareness. Such an exercise might be an eye-opener. Zendancer, thank you. You've touched some points that have been bothering me. 1) You say that meta-realities are projected on the screen of the mind. I don't know what this screen of mind is supposed to be. For me thoughts and ideas don't turn into images. Some people claim that they can visualize whatever they want, actually make images appear in their mind. I can't do that. When I think, the act of thinking doesn't interfere in any way with what is seen or heard. Thought is functional, my psychological personality expresses itself in the form of thought, this is reflected in the choices I make, but there is no coherent thing called "mind" to speak of, certainly no "screen of mind". Compared to the rest of the world I live in, thought is small, weak, isolated, it can't touch reality. 2) You say that I'm filtering every experience through thought. From my own experience I have to challenge this statement. I don't think 24/7 each second throughout the day, I doubt that anybody is able to do that, even if they tried. While awake thought comes and goes, but what is seen or heard stays the same regardless of whether I think or not. I'm not a magician, I can't just conjure up different realities via thought. Likewise I can't make something disappear or "filter it out" via thought. In my own experience thinking and sensory perception run parallel to each other, thought doesn't interfere with what is seen or heard. That's why I said that I've been focusing on reality all my life, I can't not perceive reality, no matter what I do. I'm the first to admit that much more thoughts appear than is sufficient. But in my experience there is pretty much zero indication that thought is able to alter reality in any way. I also don't really have much of a problem with it, it just runs in the background like a radio, sometimes it's annoying but I don't know how to switch it off, so I simply got used to it. And I'm not sure if I even want to switch it off, because it is a good tool (turning down the volume would be pretty nice, though). Sometimes it gives bad advice and is hilariously stupid, but it's not that difficult to focus and make it work like it's supposed to. I don't want to become like a child, children can't earn a living.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jul 10, 2010 18:04:59 GMT -5
Question: "I'm the first to admit that much more thoughts appear than is sufficient. But in my experience there is pretty much zero indication that thought is able to alter reality in any way."
Really, i think this is a great place to start. I say your experience is made up entirely of what you think and feel ABOUT the "reality" that is around you, and nothing of what is actually here. Even if you think I'm 80% wrong about that, maybe it's worth exploring the other 20%?
"I don't know what this screen of mind is supposed to be. For me thoughts and ideas don't turn into images. Some people claim that they can visualize whatever they want, actually make images appear in their mind. I can't do that."
When I say 'pink elephant', is there an image in your mind or not?
|
|