Zendancer's Book

[Daniel]

how does buddhism fit in with christianity tho?buddhist reject God and the christ

[lol]

Hey zendancer have you seen this site? It saying zen is false. The sites seem to be owned by Christians.

www.breadonthewaters.com/0237_False_Religion_of_Buddhism.html

www.oldpaths.com/Archive/Grubb/John/Mark/1953/buddhism.html

[zendancer]

Jun 9, 2010 16:47:54 GMT -5 @lol said:

Hey zendancer have you seen this site? It saying zen is false. The sites seem to be owned by Christians.

www.breadonthewaters.com/0237_False_Religion_of_Buddhism.html

www.oldpaths.com/Archive/Grubb/John/Mark/1953/buddhism.html

Lol: Yep, I've seen a lot of sites like that. I once thought about producing a humorous spiritual video titled "Minds Gone Wild" that would feature some of this nonsense, but then realized that some people would take it seriously. LOL. Ain;t the world a fascinatin' place?

[Guest]

By looking at those sites, why do some christians dislike buddhism so much? What do you think it is?

[zendancer]

I suspect that it's predominately fear of the unknown which includes a huge range of potentially frightening stuff. On the spiritual-experiences.com website you can get a sense of the things that scare fundamentalists. Many of them are afraid of their own minds (maybe for good reason! LOL) and what might come out of them.

When Bernadette Roberts was a child, her form of prayer was to become silent and listen. When she told the nuns in her school what she was doing, they insisted that she quit doing that because they considered having an empty mind extremely dangerous.

I once had an extremely fundamentalist co-worker who worried about the state of his mind constantly. One weekend he got so frightened by what he imagined was happening that he felt as if the devil was taking over his mind. He had to go to a local emergency room and get some tranquilizers in order to calm down (and put the devil out of commission for a while?).

A woman I know about would read the Bible and get so worried about unsaved people that she would become depressed and have nervous breakdowns. After shock therapy, she'd be okay for awhile, and then she'd get back into the Bible again and go downhill until she needed more ECT. One of the psychiatrists who treated her told her husband that if he could get his wife to quit reading the Bible she might be able to stay normal.

This sort of thing is common among fundamentalists in all religions. There is a kind of herd security if everyone is in agreement and reinforces a black and white interpretation of reality. When it becomes "us" versus "them," there is no end to the level of possible craziness. Islamic fundamentalists are willing to slaughter thousands of innocent people in the propagation of their belief system, and the same was true for the Christian crusaders during the Dark Ages. A rigid belief-dominated mind is capable of unimaginable horror as well as untold self-inflicted pain and suffering.

When human beings developed minds, heaven and hell both showed up at the same time. LOL

[karen]

I didn't stick with Christian Science, but I am fortunate to have been raised in that religion rather than a classical - or worse - a fundamentalist Christian religion.

I was never raised to believe that sin is all around me, nor did I believe in the devil since that wasn't part of the teachings.

[Guest]

Guest: This post of yours brought up a lot of great memories, so I thought I'd share some stories that pertain to the subject of Buddhist-Christian dialogue.

When my daughter was a teenager, we made a trip together to see the Dalai Lama. He had a brother who was a professor at a university (in Indiana, I think). We went there to hear an address the DL delivered to the student body. More than 5000 students showed up, and we had to watch it on a TV outside the main hall. The DL began by saying, "I apologize that I have nothing to give you today......." He paused, and a ripple of laughter slowly moved through the audience as more and more people saw the existential humor in his statement. His talk was very inclusive of all religions and he focused on what all spirituality points to. He talked a lot about the Tibetan practice of loving kindness and how that practice can create more tolerance among people.

The following day we went to the dedication of a new Tibetan facilty that was located a few miles from campus. There were at least a thousand people there including Stephen Segal, who looked like he was about seven feet tall and four feet wide (the guy is much bigger than he looks in his movies). The DL's brother started reading a dedication speech and broke down into uncontrollable sobbing, which continued for about ten minutes during the entire speech. It was somewhat surreal, but apparently his brother had not seen his famous relative for many years and was simply overcome with emotion. The DL gave another interesting talk, but seemed totally unconcerned about his brother's breakdown.

We then drove to Chicago where the DL was scheduled to address the Society for Buddhist-Christian Studies the following day. My daughter and I were probably the only people who had signed up for the conference who were not monks, professors, or theologians. The first meeting was held in a downtown theatre and it was filled with saffron-robed monks from Thailand, purple-robed Tibetan lamas, black-robed Zen monks, brown robed Korean monks, and about two hundred Christian theologians and writers. When the DL came onto the stage, it felt like a wave of love swept through the audience that was almost tangible--one of the strangest things I've ever experienced, and it happened almost every time the DL joined the group. His presence seemed to make everyone in the theatre break out into a huge grin and become filled with love. Lots of famous folks were there and it was the most loving group of Buddhists and Christians I've ever experienced in person.

The following day we went to the Loyola campus where the DL was the main feature. The only thing I remember from that morning session was the question/answer period. A young jesuit theologian asked the DL a long and very angry question. He basically asked, "What are we going to do about the inhuman corporations that run the world, the despotic governments that mistreat their citizens, the churches that support corrupt governments, etc. etc.?? His question lasted for what seemed like five minutes and was full of righteous indignation and anger. The question had to be translated for the DL, who kept nodding his head and looking as if he were lost in deep thought. When the question finally came to an end, everyone in the room--about 500 people--was a bit on edge and somewhat embarrassed at the guy's tirade, but the DL nodded his head in understanding one last time, looked at the fellow in great seriousness, and said, "I don't know." With those words the entire room erupted in a howl of laughter that lasted several minutes. It was too funny. The guy had essentially asked, "How are we going to solve all of the problems in the world?" and the Dalai Lama's simple, sincere, and humble answer cut through all the anger and resistance with only three words. He was saying, in effect, "I'm no magician; I'm just a human being doing the best I can."

After that large meeting, my daughter I went to several smaller meetings, and met preachers, professors, and theologians from all over the world--all of whom had come because of their interest in expanding a Christian Buddhist dialogue. We met Episcopal ministers from Germany who practiced Zen and lots of Catholic theologians who had gone on retreats with Tibetan monks and Zen Masters. Certainly the liberal wing of Christian theology was well represented, but I confess that we didn't meet any Southern Baptists there. LOL. There were many other fascinating things that happened on that trip, but hopefully this will provide the general flavor of the goodwill that we experienced during that ecumenical gathering of Christians and Buddhists.

This was an interesting read, on the previous page, it was mentioned you own 'The very centre' so what is this centre and did your experience from your meetings influence you in anyway into forming it? If you hadn't of seen the DL or gone to any of those meetings, would anyone be different for you? How would your life be now if you never studied zen or buddhism? Would you be a Christian Baptist?

[zendancer]

Guest: I don't own The Very Center; I simply started the church and provide a place for members to meet. I created it long before my trip to see the Dalai Lama. His visit to the USA at that time was a fortuitous coincidence because I was already interested in attending the meeting of the Society for Buddhist Christian Studies and he was invited to be a guest speaker. I had previously met and been impressed with two Tibetan lamas that conducted some weekend retreats near my home, so I was somewhat curious about Tibetan practices and teachings and how those things correlated with Zen and other nonduality traditions. The Dalai Lama was an interesting figure on the world spiritual scene who seemed to embrace ecumenical religious dialogue, so I was curious to see what the guy would have to say, and to get a first-hand impression of what he was like.

By the time my daughter and I went on that trip I was already involved with the Quan Um Zen School and had helped design and build a large wilderness retreat center at Furnace Mountain, Kentucky. A humorous side story is that while we were on the trip to see the DL, a guiding teacher from the Quan Um School called my home to talk with me. My wife explained that I had gone to see the Dalai Lama, and he replied with a tone of disdain, "Well, I don't need to do that sort of thing anymore." My wife and I both thought that this comment was very funny and revealed the opposite of what his statement was intended to convey.

As far as I know, the DL had virtually no effect upon my understanding, but I certainly found him to be a fascinating human being. I have heard him speak many times since then on TV, but I do not think that he is enlightened. Like most human beings, he is a complex individual, and his teachings range from the sublime to the weird. Seeing him in person was interesting because he radiated love, compassion, kindness, and goodwill in a way that cannot be captured on TV. He shows that the Tibetan practice of loving kindness can have an amazing effect upon someone even if that person's existential understanding is limited.

It is impossible to know how life would have played out if I had never encountered Zen and eastern religions. What happened is what happened. I credit Zen for pointing me in the right direction, but the truth is beyond Zen or any other set of ideas. I am in love with "what is" and "what is" is beyond Zen or any other belief system. I rejected all forms of fundamentalist Christianity at about the age of twenty because I was sure that those belief systems are the exact opposite of what Jesus Christ taught about and what he exemplified.

The Christian ideal is selflessness, but only one in a million Christians (if that many) ever discovers how to attain such a thing. It is one of the many ironies that prove God has a big sense of humor. LOL

[cabinintheforest]

The Christian ideal is selflessness, but only one in a million Christians (if that many) ever discovers how to attain such a thing. It is one of the many ironies that prove God has a big sense of humor. LOL

Hey zendancer i can see where you were going with that comment and what you meant by it. But let's have a look:

What is selflessness?

"Having, exhibiting, or motivated by no concern for oneself; unselfish"

"The act of sacrificing ones own interest for the greater good"

"Altruism - selfless concern for the welfare of others."

"The quality of not putting yourself first but being willing to give your time or money or effort etc."

Altruism was central to the teachings of Jesus found in the Gospel especially in the Sermon on the Mount.

When we talk about Altruism i see alot of it in Christianity. But where is it in Buddhism?

While Christian Scientists and similar doniminations are out helping, healing people. Where are the Buddhists? I do not see any Buddhists helping anyone or giving their time for other people.

When we think of Christianity? Why do we always associate giving with it? It's a loving religion filled with Altruism.

[karen]

Cabin: have you spent a great deal of time in predominantly Buddhist countries to be able to judge your assertion?

[zendancer]

Cabin: I bow to all people who are motivated from the heart.

In the sermon on the mount, and most of his other teachings, Jesus was pointing to something far different than what is commonly understood. No definition can capture it.

If you were down on your luck and needed help, would you want to be helped by someone who did so out of duty or obligation? By someone who did so because a holy book or a church commanded it? By someone who did it knowing that such an action would make him feel better? By someone who would feel proud of his action? By someone who would get recognition for doing so? Or by someone who acted anonymously and in such a way that you did not feel you were the recipient of charity--someone who saw you as his own True Self and acted without exhibiting or acquiring any psychological residue as a consequence of the action?

Jesus railed against people who live in their heads and do things that enhance a sense of separateness or self-righteousness. He pointed to the kind of life that becomes possible when all sense of separateness disappears, because only then is correct motivation possible.

As Bunan so eloquently put it, "Get rid of selfhood, and then do what you will. It will all be good."

Finally, consider the motivation behind the motivation of your post. Do you think that is the state of mind Jesus was pointing to?

[cabinintheforest]

Zendancer i was going to type a long reply to you. But then i thought about something you said, the truth is beyond words, my words are not enough to explain truth, the truth is much more. I can try to explain truth the best as i can but it is beyond words.

So forgetting the words, direct experience would be more suitable when dealing with truth. You can see and experience it for yourself.

Altruism is found amongst many Christians, not one in a million. If you would like to test this yourself you only need to pretend to of broken down in a car outside a Church, then go in the Church and ask the people inside for help, make it look real. They will rush off their feet to you help you, this is true Altruism, a true virtue.

I don't know any Buddhist temples, i don't own a car. So i can not perform this test to see if Buddhists are altruistic or not. But my theory is if i did break down in a car outside their temple and go in and ask them for help. 1. They wouldn't even let me in. 2. They would ignore me. As you can see very different than the Christians who would help you. Not for a reward, no not becuase it's written in a book but becuase they are kind loving people.

[zendancer]

Cabin: If you ever test your theory, you're going to get a big surprise. Until then, I would suggest shifting your attention from thoughts to what you can see and hear. The Infinite loves to find Itself. Take care and best wishes.

[cabinintheforest]

Zendancer i am basing my theory on what i have seen.

I watched a film the other day, i watch alot of martial arts films. The film was about an american teenager who wants to become a Shaolin Monk. So he goes over to China and arrives at the Shaolin Temple but he is not aloud in becuase he is a white american and not like the rest of the monks who are chinese. So he has to prove himself to the abbot of the temple by sitting outside the temple for a week.

I really enjoyed the film, especially the fighting and all the Buddhist rigorous physical and mental training that the teenager has to go through.

It featured a number of tests the monks had to perform one was The Test of the Chamber involing walking through a dark labyrinth and fighting off the attacks of spring-activated wooden dummies; at the end of that, the contestant must carry a 300-pound cauldron full of hot coals for some distance. This is all based on real life Buddhist tests in temples.

The film shows what it is like in a Buddhist temple. For example they are not aloud to hug eachother or show any emotional attachment. They are not aloud to talk or mix with females. It all seems to be very cold. It was very ascetic, it seems the buddhists wanted to cover up and hide all their emotions, feelings etc. Why do Buddhists do this?

You may say this was just a film, but it was based on Buddhist life in Shaolin temples and was quite authentic.

The film introduced me to Buddhism i could understand where they were coming from but there were certain things i still couldn't understand like why they supress all emotions and don't want any attachment, relationships or happyness in things etc

What are your opinions on this? Maybe you can explain.

[loverofall]

Let me share my experiences since I have been a couple different denominations of Christianity and I enjoy tying all religions together.

If you are emotionally free with no walls you will enjoy helping others and building relationships. Christianity does have many people like that but it also has many more people that are ego maniacs that do it out being right, better and fear of God. You can tell the difference. Its no one fault of course, just what kind of family or experiences they had in life that created the wall of fear.

The love based Christians really have stress when talking about hell because at some level they know it doesn't compute. Since their hearts are open, connecting with others is an opportunity for more joy. The fear based Christians are indifferent to others going to hell and use religion to separate into us versus them and as a way to get relief from their fears and illusion of control by praying for what they want.

Buddhism like Christianity has been distorted by the followers.

Non attachment is not what many think. It is not indifference. It is allowing feelings to come and go without resistance.

Buddhism as a religion could focus more on serving others and Christianity could focus more on mental discipline.

Fear and Desire is what causes all human mental suffering and the bible is relentless about not having fear and desires yet many Christians are very fearful and desire so many material things.

What has been fun for me with my evangelical relatives is how I present this stuff in a Christian way using scriptures and emotional freedom issues and they think I should be a pastor. If I told them a lot of what I use is from eastern religions they would say I was going to hell or be scared of hearing anymore. I have to dress it up. Many Christians like to complain about reality. I always say its God's will we have no control right and that is not what they want to hear if they are fear based from their past and upbringing.

Enough rambling but interesting at least.