Intellect

[enigma]

I wanted to jabber about the notion that it's hard to find that space prior to experiencing mind's concepts. This is the 'space' from which even the trying is known. That space cannot be found because the space is what's looking for the space. It cannot, therefore, be at the end of some kind of effort. There can be nothing to find.

So, the question may arise, why does it seem that there is effort involved in recognizing that which is doing the recognizing? Because attention has been drawn into the mind in a process of some kind rather than simply staying as effortless attention which cannot be left, and therein lies the conundrum of all practices. Effort is the locking of awareness onto it's own object, obscuring it's own obvious subjectivity.

The goal of all practices must be to end the practice, just as the goal of seeking is to end the seeking, not to accomplish the finding. The goal is always irreconcilable futility. One cannot possibly progress toward this 'nonduality' since one already IS that and cannot get closer to that or farther away from that. Rather, the one progressing simply stops his imaginary progress and notices that there was never anywhere to go and nobody to go anywhere. The finder cannot find itself just as the one peering through a telescope can never find the one looking. First, the looking through the glass must cease, and then there is an entirely different sort of looking involved in noticing the looker, is there not? Not an objective identification, but rather a subjective noticing. There cannot be effort involved in this as the effort betrays the belief in a 'distance' between the one efforting, and the goal of the effort, which are one and the same.

[Portto]

That's certainly interesting, Enigma!

[divinity]

Can a human really KNOW non duality whilst still in material form?

[cabinintheforest]

Divinity there is no material form, man has never been matter. He is spiritual.

[enigma]

May 26, 2010 17:25:41 GMT -5 divinity said:

Can a human really KNOW non duality whilst still in material form?

Aren't humans, themselves, known?

[divinity]

Memory and intellect can both get in the way when we preconceive and drag the past into the future. When I was a child I wanted to see my favorite tree just as it was with no thought of the words which had been taught to me. I was two and already the preconception was in the way of reality and frustrating me greatly.
The insistence of adults to force a child to over-identify with the physical form begins early on with: "this is your nose", "this is your mouth", "this is your foot"... is there another way to raise children in society? When the Dali Lamas are found as children, is all that undone somehow to create a clean slate?
I once had a friend who spoke about the body he was in, in terms of "the foot", "the heart", "the kidneys"... That made sense to me.

[enigma]

If innocence were not lost, how could you ever have the experience of transcending ignorance? Ultimately, maybe even perpetual innocence is not good enough, and that's why the words seem to have gotten in the way in spite of it all.

[synapticrythms]

cabin, I hear you when you say that you are coming from a "Western" standpoint. Some things you might want to check out...

A Course in Miracles (has definite practices in the Workbook section - daily meditations - and it will dovetail well with Christian Science),

Bernadette Roberts (Christian mystic talking about non-duality and the experience of no-self),

and Meister Eckhart (another Christian mystic who's descriptions are really good pointers).

I have found that my practice on the Western Front has been one of simple letting go and surrender, "Thy will be done," coupled with fervent prayer that I be lead to where I need to be. I also used intellect against intellect... the intellect against rigid thought structures. For instance, when I had moved a long way through my beliefs about people, I saw my parents again after several years of being away from them. This visit they were acquaintances to me... I felt no connection like I had felt before, and it was very strange. I then realized some time later that I had been having a relationship with my concept or rigid thought structure of my parents rather than my actual parents.

On the Eastern Front, there has been a process of continual self-inquiry that started as the intellect posing questions to itself. Most of it centered around "Is that true?" I used yoga and meditation as ways of gaining a good map of my psychological formative patterns. For the last month or so, I have dropped most thinking in my practice altogether, and I am simply being... identifying with that which has remained through all this maelstrom.

[zendancer]

Synapticrythms: You wrote: "For the last month or so, I have dropped most thinking in my practice altogether, and I am simply being... identifying with that which has remained through all this maelstrom."

Perfect! Now, just drop the identifying and all separation will disappear.

[Myself]

So Zendancer are you saying you have gotten rid of all your intellect?

[Myself]

Oh boy.... there's so many of "myself !"

[zendancer]

Jun 21, 2010 12:19:43 GMT -5 @Myself said:

So Zendancer are you saying you have gotten rid of all your intellect?

Myself: Goodness, no! I am not suggesting that anyone get rid of the mind or intellect. I am suggesting that for most people the intellect runs amok and is a master rather than a servant. By learning to shift from thoughts to what can be seen with the eyes and heard with the ears, one can become free of the illusions of form, space, time, existence, selfhood, separation, etc.

This body/mind loves to think about a wide range of things, but it understands the difference between thoughts, which are products of imagination, and the living truth. This body/mind also loves silence, mystery, and presence, so it can simply shift from thoughts to direct perception whenever it chooses.