Intellect

[cabinintheforest]

Iv been going over alot of threads on this forum. On most of these threads the same things keeps getting mentioned by zendancer, lightmystic and a few others.

I think it is great that you have tried to explain certain things but i have some questions about these certain things.

Now as the title of the thread is intellect you can kind of see where i am going with this.

So lets get down to discussing this.

As mentioned on alot of the threads intellect is mentioned, it has been put forward that intelligence is not needed and that to discover 'non-duality' people need to go back to like a child. To not think or have any ideas.

It's been said to understand non-duality 'To understand it, you must leave the mind (intellect) behind'

'You must also give up all ideas and beliefs'

'a person must leave selfhood behind'

So a person to understand non-duality must leave all of their Imagination, intelligence, ideas, beliefs, thoughts and also leave their selfhood behind. In other words self-annihilation.

This has also been what has said:

'a person must learn how to see without thinking--must learn how to experience the world like a little child. A person must shift from thoughts to direct sensory experience again and again until direct sensory experience becomes the dominant mode of mind.'

So according to this people on this forum are saying intelligence must go. But people need intelligence.

Heres an example.

People on this forum are saying get rid of intellect and go back to like a child with no intelligence. A child does not have intelligence with this logic people would just be getting run over by a car. Children with no intellect would run out into the road and get run over, while a man or women with intelligence knows that a car is dangerous and standing in the road is not a safe place.

The non-duality expressed by people on this website seems to strip man and women of their selfhood, ideas, thoughts, beliefs, ideas, imagination, intelligence, emotion etc. Can you honestly say that you practice this? You just sit in silence your whole life? If we got rid of all those things (selfhood, ideas, thoughts, intelligence etc) what would life be like? It doesn't sound nice to me getting rid of all those things. Life is about love and happyness. Why do people want to self annihalate themselves? Im sure God does not want that

Im not having a rant i just want some of these deep questions answered. Thank you for reading.

[karen]

Hi Cabin!

No one is saying (at least no one here I can recall) that you have to get rid of intellect. Intellect is great. Memory is a wonderful and good tool. I knew a kid who went to my elementary school who was indeed hit by a car after crawling out in the street as a baby and became quadriplegic. No one wants to go back to that state of no knowledge.

But the key difference is to not use the intellect as one's primary center of reference. It's often said that the mind is a wonderful servant but a very poor master. This is the difference.

Also, intelligence (as far as I can tell) is not a function of intellect. Intelligence comes from a deeper source. Intellect sees patterns and cognizes differences, but intelligence can brings about the new - the fresh.

Lastly, there is no obliteration of self in this path (least as I can tell). It is rather the obliteration of what we think we are. And what we think we are is molded by the pattern recognizing monkey mind (mortal mind) without much intelligence.

So set your intellect aside while seeking, but don't throw it away.

[zendancer]

Cabin: Those are excellent questions, but you have misunderstood what we are pointing to. We are not saying that an adult needs to become a child; we are saying that an adult needs to become child-like in the way that they interact with reality. Children directly interact with reality; adults usually interact with their ideas about reality.

Furthermore, there are two types of intelligence--intellectual intelligence and body intelligence. We are saying that intellectual intelligence and reasoning (which is a function of the intellect) cannot resolve existential questions (you cannot experience the absolute through thought). We are saying that the body's intelligence is vastly greater than that of the intellect because it is directly connected to reality (it is one-with it).

We are NOT saying that the intellect must be discarded; we are saying that it must be transcended or subordinated. The intellect, or what we call "mind," is analogous to a computer, and it functions in the abstract. Someone who transcends the mind can still use it, but it then functions like a servant rather than a master.

People who have learned how to suspend thought interact with the world directly. Unless you have learned to do this, you cannot imagine what life is like without thought. It is possible to intelligently function in the world in total mental silence. Speed readers learn to look at a page of words and understand the meaning without talking to themselves or thinking a single thought. That same kind of intelligence can be used in any context. Most readers verbally speak the words to themselves in their heads as they read, but this is not necessary. It is just a bad habit that can be broken with sufficient practice.

The meditative practices that have been described on this forum help people escape from the prison of the intellect. After they escape, they can then use the mind without becoming trapped or attached to thoughts. Apparent problems occur in peoples' lives only because they believe their thoughts.

Seeing through the illusion of selfhood may seem like self-annihilation, but it is really Self-discovery, and it is only by discovering the living truth that one experiences "the peace that passeth all understanding." Most people experience love from a selfish perspective, but the word "agape" refers to love in the cosmic sense, and it is that kind of love that the New Testament is pointing to. I can assure you that you would be happier and far more loving, tolerant, merciful, and joyful if you saw through the illusion of "Cabin."

Jesus said, "I and my Father are One." This is true for everyone else, too, whether they realize it or not. The path of non-duality is the path of discovering what Jesus expressed in that statement. Cheers.

[zendancer]

Karen: Good post. I was writing almost the same thing simultaneously. LOL.

[enigma]

And you both beat me to it, so what's left for me, me, me to say?

::::Making up stuff anyway::::
Intellect is sometimes needed, though maybe it has more to do with the 'unnatural' way we live than anything else. What is not often recognized is the autonomous nature of thought. IOW, in the same way that we notice choices being made and we assume we are responsible for making them, we notice thoughts happen and assume we are the cause. When somebody says 'Let go of the thoughts', they may not be saying stop thoughts from happening, they are likely saying let go of the need to be the one causing them. When they say, 'Stay in the present', they don't mean erase memory and all knowledge you have of the effect of moving cars on stationary bodies, they just mean let go of the need to relate everything you perceive to your memory of similar perceptions and past experiences with it so that you can no longer see what you're perceiving. When they say 'Let go of beliefs', they don't mean forget the concepts, they just mean see them for what they are and stop believing they're something more than ideas that talk about other ideas. It really means letting go of the idea that you are the thinker, chooser, doer, and in this, thinking, choosing, doing happens quite spontaneously without your help.

How can the thought to not walk out in front of a moving car happen without your help? Because you were never the cause of such thoughts to begin with, and when you stop believing you are, they continue to happen without you. Noticing this is not something a 'mind-identified person' wants to notice, since it clearly demonstrates the unreality of the separate person, and it's very easy to explain it away and conclude it's not really so. Maybe you've had the experience of somebody throwing a ball at you face and your hand reaches up and catches the ball before your thinking mind even really understands what happened. If that seems to resonate, it might also be interesting to notice that if you had stopped to think about it and set up a volitional pattern of going about trying to catch the ball, you'd be nursing a shiner, and so things happen quite a bit more efficiently when you're not volitionally thinking.

BTW, I'm reminded that, if you work out the physics of a fast ball pitch, you find the batter has to get quite a ways into his swing before the ball ever leaves the hand of the pitcher. How in the world does any batter ever connect with a fastball? Apparently, the 'batter' doesn't. Then there's the experiment of the brain betraying a choice (in the latest version I've seen) about 3 seconds before the person is consciously aware of making it.

When I started this post, I had no idea what I was going to say or where it was going. The idea of having to think about it and cause all this jabbering strikes me as far too tedious, so I'm glad 'I' don't have to do it.

I dunno if it's helpful....sumthin to think about. Hehe.

[klaus]

zendancer, karen, enigma,

Well put.

Intellect is necessary and logical for the play in this mundane reality and it's from this perspective we should view intellect and in no way preclude other ways of knowing.

[cabinintheforest]

Thank you for the posts. I will comment on this first. Becuase i think i have understood what zendancer is saying.

The meditative practices that have been described on this forum help people escape from the prison of the intellect. After they escape, they can then use the mind without becoming trapped or attached to thoughts. Apparent problems occur in peoples' lives only because they believe their thoughts.

Seeing through the illusion of selfhood may seem like self-annihilation, but it is really Self-discovery, and it is only by discovering the living truth that one experiences "the peace that passeth all understanding.

Let's talk about this self-annihilation and illusion of the selfhood. Iv over viewed some of the posts made on this forum. And i think i understand it now.

So let me go ahead and explain what i think you are all talking about. You can correct me if i am wrong.

Since i first came to this forum, i have expressed i have a difficulty understanding some eastern teachings.

I have learnt some things about vedanta im finding that easy to understand, just not the buddhism yet. Anyway iv done some research on the illusion of the selfhood / self-annihalation etc.

I wanted it expressed in western teachings. As zendancer has pointed out, Christian mysticism has explained some of it.

So after a few hours of searching the internet i came to what i was searching for. 1 book.

The book was written by a western mystic called Marguerite Porete. The book is called The Mirror of Simple Souls.

I havn't brought the book yet but it looks like a classic, i have read an overview and it seems to explain easily what is being discussed on this forum and non-duality.

Let's keep it simple and easy i will quote just a mainstream site wikipedia which actually sums it up quite nicely:

'Marguerite ultimately says that the Soul must give up Reason, whose logical, conventional grasp of reality cannot fully comprehend God and the presence of Divine Love. The "Annihilated Soul" is one that has given up everything but God through Love. For Porete, when the Soul is truly full of God's Love it is united with God and thus in a state of union which causes it to transcend the contradictions of this world. In such a beatific state it cannot sin because it is wholly united with God's Will and thus incapable of acting in such a way - a phenomenon which the standard theology describes as the effect of Divine grace, which suppresses a person's sinful nature. It is in this vision of Man being united with God through Love, thus returning to its source, and the presence of God in everything that she connects in thought with the ideas of Eckhart'

I understand this now i understand about the annihalation or illusion of selfhood is. Is this what everyone is describing as 'non-duality' on this forum. If it is i understand now!! Thank you.

[enigma]

Seems to me that before you can annihilate something you first have to make it real, and i haven't been able to find individual souls or individual persons anywhere. However, coming from within that paradigm, it sounds like it might be a useful description.

[zendancer]

Cabin: Non-duality can be experienced, but it cannot be intellectually understood because it is beyond the mind. However, as Enigma stated, from the mind's perspective, the description you found points to the truth.

There is a big difference between the idea "God is the only Reality" and experiencing that truth directly. Clearly, if God is all there IS, there can be nothing outside of God to observe it, think about it, or comment upon it. To think otherwise is only God playing a humorous game with Itself. If there is no separateness, then there is nothing capable of being annihilated or anything needing to be annihilated. This is the fundamental realization of non-duality. Who could possibly get enlightened when oneness is all there is?

[cabinintheforest]

People who have learned how to suspend thought interact with the world directly. Unless you have learned to do this, you cannot imagine what life is like without thought. It is possible to intelligently function in the world in total mental silence.

Have you learnt to do this? Completely function in mental silence?

The meditative practices that have been described on this forum help people escape from the prison of the intellect. After they escape, they can then use the mind without becoming trapped or attached to thoughts. Apparent problems occur in peoples' lives only because they believe their thoughts.

Ok well i look around on this forum and i see alot of theories etc but when it comes down to actually experiencing non duality not much is mentioned. Im looking for techniques and practices to experience 'cosmic consciouness' or 'nonduality'. You have said very correctly to just sit in silence. You also said meditation.

Im not interested in the gura eastern stuff it does not represent an average western person. Think just of a normal westerner who wants to experience nonduality what techniques or practices does he/she have to do to directly experience this non duality?

Im sure you don't have to be a gura meditation master to experience it becuase as it has been said many people have experienced it. So is their any techniques / practices ?

[cabinintheforest]

forget this comment

Ok well i look around on this forum and i see alot of theories etc but when it comes down to actually experiencing non duality not much is mentioned.

i just remebered what you said the truth is beyond words

[cabinintheforest]

Question: What should I do if my mind wanders during practice?
Answer: It is not a question of if your mind wanders. Your mind will wander! You can count on it. After ten years of practice, your mind will still wander, but it won’t wander so much that you lose sight of the truth. Thoughts will always appear in your mind, but the object of practice is not to stop thoughts from appearing. The object is to discover the truth and become free from the illusions created by thought. Practice helps us to discover who we are.

zendancer this is from your book in the question and answer section. What practice are you talking about? Meditation? What spiritual practice? I would like to know. Thank you.

[zendancer]

Cabin: There is only non-duality, but the mind creates the appearance of duality. The habit of incessant thought creates the illusion that there exists a separate entity ("Cabin" in your case) who appears to confront an externalized reality. You feel as if "you" inhabit a body that looks at things, such as trees, that are other-than-you. A baby interacts with reality directly, but an adult interacts with thoughts ABOUT reality. To see through the illusion of separateness, you must reverse the process that created the appearance of separateness. Here are some basic practices that can help:

1. Breath counting: Sitting in a chair, slowly expel the air from your lungs. Use your diaphragm to expel more air than usual, and then use your diaphragm to control your breathing. At the end of the exhalation, count "one," and then relax the diaphragm and allow the lungs to fill with air again. Exhale and count "two." Continue to the count of "ten," and then repeat the process. If thoughts cause you to lose the count, simply start over at "one."

2. Breath following: It is the same exercise but without counting. Just watch the breathing process. If thoughts carry your attention away, simply bring it back to your breathing and try to stay focused on it.

3. Set an object in front of you (or pick out an object in front of you), and simply stare at it. If thoughts carry you away, bring your attention back to what you can see as soon as you realize that your attention has wandered off.

4. Listen to whatever sounds you can hear. If thoughts carry you away, bring your attention back to what you can hear as soon as you can. Stay focused upon what you can hear.

5. Go for a walk and simply look and listen to everything around you. When thoughts carry you away, gently bring your attention back to what you can see and hear. Don't name what you see and hear and don't think about what you see and hear; simply look and listen.

These five exercises will show you what you are up against--a mind that constantly thinks, imagines, talks, reflects, fantasizes, calculates, tells stories, judges, discriminates, identifies, etc. Because you are young, you may be able to break this habit faster than someone who has practiced thinking twice as long as you have.

You asked if I can function in total mental silence. Yes. Anyone can learn to function in total mental silence; it just takes practice. However, the goal is not to live in total mental silence; it is to be free of the mind's domination. I often go hiking in the mountains and enjoy long periods of mental silence, but I also enjoy thinking about a wide range of different things, and my work requires a considerable amount of thought. The goal is to perceive and understand the difference between thoughts and reality and also to become free from believing thoughts or getting attached to them.

If you can break the habit of incessant thinking, you will discover that the world is not what you think it is, and you are not who you think you are. Keep in mind Psalms 46:10--"Be still and know that I am God." If you can become sufficiently still, you may get a big surprise. Cheers.

[klaus]

Hi cabin,

In one of the threads someone mentioned what one sees when looking at a flower.

Most people as was said see the idea/concept of a flower in their heads instead of directly experiencing the flower.
If you have a flower available use all your senses(without thought)-sight,hearing,touch, taste, smell. What do you experience?

Can you ever again relate it to your idea/concept of-flower?
You can do this exercise with anything including yourself.

[ethereal]

Hi all!

I just have a few comments to share about some practices that have worked for me in regards to progressing further towards nonduality.

One is a practice that Adyashanti has recommended, which is to "get a feel for awareness, that which is not a feeling, experience that awareness which is not an experience". Try to sense what awareness is like, when it is not an experience that can be grasped in the mind. Basically, it means that you cannot experience awareness. To try to find awareness as a subtle object of experience is setting yourself up for failure and tail-chasing. You can only experience concepts in your mind that may seem like awareness, but it will not be awareness, it will just be your concept of what awareness might feel like. However, you can begin to recognize what awareness is, not with your mind or experience, but with awareness itself, being aware of itself. To me, when I have tried it, it feels like nothing, or unknown, or empty. Can't really describe it more than that.

I do not have much experience with this personally so I cannot comment further, but maybe other posters who are in that state can explain more.

Another practice which I have recently discovered by myself, and which is similar to what other posters have said like klaus and zendancer, is to surrender the mind's desire to interpret and conceptualize experience/sensory data. A very clear example of what this desire is, is when you have a page of text/words in front of you (say, right now when you're reading this post . In reality, there is only an image of random sensory data, some small black images within a larger white image. In reality there is no meaning to any of it at all. They aren't even words, because words is how we define these random images. Just meaningless sensory data.

However, note that the mind will try to read and interpret it. The mind has the desire to start scanning the words line by line and attempt to read it, to form meaning from it. After it reads the words, the mind's desire is to clutch onto the conceptual meaning of the words, and then to connect them together and form conceptual meaning from it. These are desires that can be surrendered. There is this mental "space" or "state" prior to the mind interpreting the sensory data, where you just see the sensory data as sensory data, see the words as just meaningless images, and while the mind will continually try to interpret it, to associate meaning to it, you can ride the "razor's edge" prior to that interpretation and stay there. You will know you are succeeding when there is no mental desire/movement towards wanting to read the words (or move the eyes), and you can't recognize the meaning of the words even while looking at it, it will just look like a meaningless image to you. The desire will continue to recur, but you just stay put on the "razor's edge" and surrender the desire.

The desire is pretty intense. Very very intense. It will keep coming back over and over again. And the mind will try to trick you into believing that the mind's interpretation is real, that it's derived conceptual meaning is real and normal and "just the way it is". It can be hard to distinguish that "razor's edge" that is prior to the mind's operations but it can be done.

This is just one example of the general desire to interpret all experience. So you can take this and generalize it to many different situations. For example, I've also noticed this very intense desire to know what people look like, to look at their faces (especially with the opposite sex), say when I'm walking down the street, or when I look at someone's Facebook profile. There is just this huge intense desire to want to look at the picture or person. Then after that, to interpret and judge and assign value and meaning, etc. In reality, there is no person there, there's no concept of physical beauty, and there's no reason why I should want to look at her picture instead of looking at a rock. It is all just the mind's fantasized interpretation and meaning of experience.

I like klaus' post above which said that you can do the exercise with anything including yourself. I've been trying to work on that recently, and it seems like the mind has this constant nonstop grasping onto trying to reinforce the illusion or experience of a separate self. Been trying to find that space prior to experiencing the mind's self-concept but it's pretty hard.