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Post by Portto on May 1, 2010 9:11:10 GMT -5
Porto: I think you mean temporary as in "awareness will surive the death of the body". So I'm asking how you can possibly know that. You agreed that the whole universe is having "the experience," and not the body. It seems pretty clear to me that the universe will survive the death of my body. So, experience/awareness continues... |
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Post by zendancer on May 1, 2010 14:38:54 GMT -5
Question: During an experience of cosmic consciousness (what Zen calls "kensho"--the seeing into one's true nature), there is both a direct realization of oneness and a simultaneous realization that what we call "the universe" is infinitely vast, alive, intelligent, and aware. It becomes obvious that time, space, matter, energy, causation, etc. are all concepts, and that the truth is beyond concepts. The "knowing" that arises from such an experience is direct and unmediated by thought, so it has the same kind of power as hitting your finger with a hammer; one has no doubt whatsoever about what that sort of experience reveals.
You stated that you would like to have some assurance, in advance, that pursuing non-duality will be worth the effort (that you will be rewarded with understanding?). No one can tell you that because no one knows what will happen. What we're pointing to is a mystery that is infinitely unpredictable. Some people wake up and some don't. That's just the way it is. Ironically, there is no "you" who can do anything about this one way or the other because who you think you are is an imaginary character that does not exist.
Zen has a koan that specifically addresses this issue. It goes like this:
A man sat is deep samadhi (body and mind fallen off) for millions of kalpas (eons and eons), but did not wake up. Why?
Reality is strange. One Zen monk worked on the "mu" koan year after year with no success. This is probably the most famous koan in Zen, and it is used as an enlightenment koan. Many people have huge breakthroughs as a result of contemplating mu, but this poor guy could not get a glimmer of insight. Finally, after twenty years of effort, he concluded that he was a real dummy and would never get it. He left his monastery and assigned himself the task of sweeping off the tombs of famous masters in a nearby graveyard. One day as he was sweeping the tombs, he brushed a small pebble which struck the bamboo fence surrounding the tombs. When he heard the sound of the impact, he had such a huge enlightenment experience that he saw through the mu koan and all of the hundreds of other koans at the same time. He totally woke up, and became a famous master himself.
You stated that although you have meditated for three years, nothing has changed. Don't be too sure about that.
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Post by shannon on May 2, 2010 8:56:01 GMT -5
Hey, Question, you got a PM,
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Post by question on May 2, 2010 12:37:15 GMT -5
Enigma: I'm not saying that when nobody is perceiving time and space, there is a concrete objective world of some kind of a physical time and space. I agree that time and space are only conceptual, only ideas. When no one is looking, then what remains is Being. When perception of it occurs then it can be a conceptual perception of what we call time and space. But even such conceptual perception is still 100% Being, playing the illusion game with itself. I agree that whether there is perception of Being or no perception at all, what is 100% there is: Being. There can't be nothing but Being. Even if some illusory ego is trapped in the stupidest of all ideas, it's still nothing but Being, and what this idiot then experiences is nothing but Being. I'm not a dichotomist who divides the world into objectivity and subjectivity. My worldview is that of an absolute objectivism (at least that's what I call it, I don't know the exact philosophical term, if there even is one), and the one and only protagonist is Being. Even everything that is going on in what some people call subjective experience is still totally objective, because it IS and therefore is Being. You guys seem to be absolute subjectivists, because you equate awareness and being. What I don't understand is on what grounds you can justify this step, other than mysitical experience. Yes, Being and awareness fundamentally have no physically objectifiable qualities. But it doesn't mean that we then can conclude both terms to be exactly the same. Awareness is a very specific function (and the function is: awareness) and this function is dependent on the fact that it IS in the first place. No Being --> no awareness. But if there's no awareness, Being still is. We can substitute consciousness or beingness for the word 'awareness'. There is no actual awareness of being, just awareness. Awareness cannot be unaware, and it cannot be aware OF anything. It can just be what it is: awareness. It's not a thing and there's nothing else. There's not the slightest hand-hold for mind to grasp here. It collapses totally into the simplicity of THIS, without distinction of any kind. From the point of view of awareness, that may be the case. But from the point of view of Being, awareness of awareness is still fundamentally nothing but Being, no? |
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Post by question on May 2, 2010 12:40:34 GMT -5
Porto: I think you mean temporary as in "awareness will surive the death of the body". So I'm asking how you can possibly know that. You agreed that the whole universe is having "the experience," and not the body. It seems pretty clear to me that the universe will survive the death of my body. So, experience/awareness continues... ...without awareness. The universe is aware of awareness only through awareness. Awareness from Being's point of view isn't an experience, Being is still unchanged Being. When there is awareness, then Being IS the experience of awareness AS Being. But once Being isn't awareness anymore, then it can't function as awareness, even though Being still is. Being is "experiencing" both the body and awareness, awareness however to the best of scentific knowledge probably is dependent on the body. So when the body ceases to exist, then so does awareness, even though the actual "experiencer" still is. |
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Post by enigma on May 2, 2010 18:42:33 GMT -5
Yes, awareness of awareness is Self awareness, and it is actually always the case, though it can seem not to be.
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Post by enigma on May 2, 2010 18:57:17 GMT -5
You agreed that the whole universe is having "the experience," and not the body. It seems pretty clear to me that the universe will survive the death of my body. So, experience/awareness continues... ...without awareness. The universe is aware of awareness only through awareness. Awareness from Being's point of view isn't an experience, Being is still unchanged Being. When there is awareness, then Being IS the experience of awareness AS Being. But once Being isn't awareness anymore, then it can't function as awareness, even though Being still is. Being is "experiencing" both the body and awareness, awareness however to the best of scentific knowledge probably is dependent on the body. So when the body ceases to exist, then so does awareness, even though the actual "experiencer" still is. If you're sitting in a theater, awareness is the screen on/in which the movie plays. Objects will come and go on the screen, including bodies, but when the movie ends, the screen remains; awareness remains. Awareness is now aware only of the screen, which IS awareness. Awareness does not come and go, only the images on the screen. |
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Post by Portto on May 3, 2010 9:07:12 GMT -5
Hi Question,
Zendancer and Enigma wrote some really good posts.
Language is very subjective, and all words are just pointers.
What do you trust? How do you know that something is "real?" You need to be open do direct experience, wherever that will take you.
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Post by question on May 4, 2010 10:57:07 GMT -5
Question: During an experience of cosmic consciousness (what Zen calls "kensho"--the seeing into one's true nature), there is both a direct realization of oneness and a simultaneous realization that what we call "the universe" is infinitely vast, alive, intelligent, and aware. It becomes obvious that time, space, matter, energy, causation, etc. are all concepts, and that the truth is beyond concepts. The "knowing" that arises from such an experience is direct and unmediated by thought, so it has the same kind of power as hitting your finger with a hammer; one has no doubt whatsoever about what that sort of experience reveals. It's a cool story, but what I am supposed to do with it? Hoping for a kensho experience to resolve my questions, instead of using ways that are available to me right here and now seems to me like desiring to be a millionaire and hoping to win the lottery instead of working really hard to earn the money. I'm not a gambler. Problem is, it's really hard to estimate which one is more of a gamble: trying to think my way out or sacrifice what could be a relatively happy life in a pursuit of something that I know only from hearsay. I don't want to end up like the thousand other old tomb sweepers who didn't get enlightened from the sound of a pebble hitting the bamboo fence. |
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Post by question on May 4, 2010 10:57:46 GMT -5
This discussion has probably reached an end. I don't know how I can make my question any clearer. You go back to the same argument which to me honestly seems to be based on a hidden assumption much greater than what triggers my question. Is it really impossible to have this matter laid down with logical coherency and stringency? You can say that language and logic is flawed at its core, but to me that's just another cop-out strategy. And if that's my perception of the matter then it must the perception of countless other seekers. Years ago, when I was a new to all of this, it was already apparent, but I simply delegated my non-understanding away to my spiritual immaturity. But as results failed to appear and my frustration grew, I could no longer keep up hope or faith. Now I'm deeper in this question than ever before, probably much deeper in it than most and the problem is so obvious to me that I can't believe that at the satsangs there aren't people constantly standing up and shouting it to the teachers, really trying to nail them down, lol. Anyways, thanks for wasting your time on me, lol. I love you all.  |
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Post by zendancer on May 4, 2010 11:44:15 GMT -5
Question: I know that you know the answer to your own question, but you don't know that you know it. You lack confidence that you can find the answer you're seeking in a reasonable amount of time, and you're wanting a shortcut. You might want to consider koan study, because you could enjoy some quick successes with simple koans, and thereby realize that you, yourself, are capable of answering any question that you can think up.
As you may know from a few of my previous postings, some koans are very easy to penetrate and others are not. Some are extremely difficult to see through. One Zen Master advised his students not to even work on the "Who am I?" koan unless they were prepared to spend ten years on it. In fact, when new students show up at Zen monasteries in Japan, the head teacher sometimes interviews them to find out how serious they are about non-duality and "big" existential issues. If students are not serious about wanting to understand the "big stuff", then they are told how to meditate for other purposes--better health, reduction of stress, stronger mental focus, and so forth. If they are extremely serious, however, then they may be given the "mu" koan or some of the harder koans that often trigger enlightenment experiences.
I have experimented with using koans, and most people can quickly penetrate koans such as,
"How can you greet an enlightened woman with neither words nor silence?" or "What is the true nature of a cow?" or "In a baseball game the bases were loaded and the batter hit a home run, but not a man scored. Why?" These are all pretty easy to penetrate. The next level of koans is somewhat harder, but after a person has some success with those, they usually realize that the same process will work with any question. The process is simply to contemplate the issue until thinking stops and the mind momentarily unifies. Suddenly the answer pops out, and sometimes the answer is astonishing. After this happens once or twice, the seeker gains confidence that all of the answers are present within himself?herself and learns how to become silent and access them.
The most important koans are the ones that are personal. What should I be doing with my life? Who am I? Is there a God? What is going on? Am I really in love with this person I'm thinking about marrying? Should I quit my secure job and take a chance on doing something I love, or keep doing something that pays the bills but doesn't satisfy me? What is the meaning of life? Is there life after death? Every single one of these questions can be answered if a person is sufficiently motivated to seek the answer. You can think about this kind of stuff for years without success, because the answers come from something deeper than thinking. You have to get in touch with the core of your being. If you want to pursue the koan thing to build up your confidence, send me an email. I don;t want to discuss formal koans in a public forum.
BTW, my time is never wasted here. There is nothing more fun than writing about this path. Cheers.
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Post by klaus on May 4, 2010 12:44:25 GMT -5
Hi question,
I encourage you to keep on the path. I have given up many times but was always drawn back by something deep inside. That something call it God, Life, THAT has been preparing me for 41 years to show me, we are THAT.
Start listening to that something inside you and give your mind a rest.
Simply trust what that something is telling you.
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Post by Myself on May 4, 2010 12:48:08 GMT -5
You go back to the same argument which to me honestly seems to be based on a hidden assumption much greater than what triggers my question. Is it really impossible to have this matter laid down with logical coherency and stringency? You can say that language and logic is flawed at its core, but to me that's just another cop-out strategy. And if that's my perception of the matter then it must the perception of countless other seekers. Question, did you ask yourself these questions when you were a toddler? Were you concerned about awareness? We are always one with the universe, but as we grow up we start to imagine we are separate. A toddler doesn't need to pray or search for awareness because the need doesn't arise. Logical questions are mazes that we build. When we start believing we are separate, that's when we become confused and start looking for a way out! |
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Post by question on May 5, 2010 11:01:21 GMT -5
Question, did you ask yourself these questions when you were a toddler? Were you concerned about awareness? We are always one with the universe, but as we grow up we start to imagine we are separate. A toddler doesn't need to pray or search for awareness because the need doesn't arise. Logical questions are mazes that we build. When we start believing we are separate, that's when we become confused and start looking for a way out! I don't remember asking such questions when I was a child. But I don't see how that is of any importance. I also don't believe that "I" am seperate from anything. I had a debate with Enigma about this some weeks ago, he basically said it doesn't matter if I believe that I'm not seperate, because this seperation belief is supposedly some kind of unconsious thing that one can't get rid of with thought. One more thing that I can't wrap my mind around, lol. |
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Post by question on May 5, 2010 11:05:31 GMT -5
Hi question, I encourage you to keep on the path. I have given up many times but was always drawn back by something deep inside. That something call it God, Life, THAT has been preparing me for 41 years to show me, we are THAT. Start listening to that something inside you and give your mind a rest. Simply trust what that something is telling you. Yeah I can't quit anymore anyways. Now that you mention "listening inside", I've been meaning to ask about that aswell. I have a very spiritual friend who claims that an inner voice is actually guiding him, he claims to actually hear this voice, ask it whatever he wants and receive an answer most of the time. We got lost driving in Cologne once, I'm studying the map but can't make sense of anything, and he, despite not knowing any better than me, amazingly got us right on track through all the crazy traffic by simply listening to this voice. Creepy, lol. For some time I practised such listening but not much came out of it. I had some episodes of coherent communication with what seemed to be intelligence within me, but only in dreams. I work in a job where I quickly have to make difficult financial decisions. Sometimes the decisions are so thin that I might aswell flip a coin. In such situations, when logical thinking can't dictate what's right or wrong, I mostly rely on what "feels" to be the right decision. So far, I can't really say that listening to intuition is such situations is a "goldmine", but I can't be sure, it's hard to calculate. The third kind of "intuition" that I know to have experienced, is when one is under tremendous pressure and the body (or something else, I don't really know) takes over and does things that I didn't know I was capable of. I know to have experiencing such things when playing soccer and talking in a university lecture. Is this the kind of intuition or listening you're talking about? |
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