Imagination and reality

[loverofall]

Calling thoughts and illusions imagination is much closer to the truth.
We either are in reality or we are imagining. Wow, this was another strike to the imaginary "I". One imagination creating more imaginations. Another mind quieting realization. Fascinating and scary.

[zendancer]

Mar 12, 2010 21:46:16 GMT -5 loverofall said:

Calling thoughts and illusions imagination is much closer to the truth.
We either are in reality or we are imagining. Wow, this was another strike to the imaginary "I". One imagination creating more imaginations. Another mind quieting realization. Fascinating and scary.

Yes, the world that most of us perceive is imaginary, and each imagined world is uniquely different. If we listen without imagining, we hear reality. If we look without imagining, we see reality.

There is the mind's world of imagination, and there is the real world. The more silent we become, the more we perceive what is real. If we stay focused upon reality long enough, the mind's dominance is shaken loose and it becomes a servant rather than a master. To appreciate the challenge that is faced in trying to wake up, we only need to shift our attention to what can be heard, and then try to hold our attention there for several hours. (It is easier to do this with hearing rather than seeing because seeing triggers too many images and ideas)

After sufficient silence has been attained, no words can be applied to what is perceived.

[loverofall]

Its fascinating because when this post was read, it seemed so simple and true. All the fantasizing, reflecting, resenting, worrying, regretting, exciting is just imagination being done by an imagination called I. Its the scam of scams realization that makes laughter and heart pounding.

We have to use imagination to undo imagination. I get now mind to undo mind but at some point it all gets dropped.

Presence is the absence of imagination.

It does seem like the process is taking on a life of its own. The fraud of living a life through I and all its imaginings really hits home.

I was emailing some old friends who have had to deal with the "insanity" of emotional freedom and enlightenment which now is really just giving up imagination for reality.

My one friend said this week, stop pushing your reality on me and that statement hit home. I can't push my reality on anyone but I could push my imagination on him or what he really meant is make him see his imagination is imagination.

Love

[gloveoflove]

Do you mean that you are an ideation that imagines itself doing all these things? Like a story?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism

It seems even the story is permeated with what you really are. Is not the trying to not imagine just more imagination that the idea of you is doing the stopping of imagination? I think that's what you're saying, no?

[frankshank]

Mar 14, 2010 1:41:24 GMT -5 @gloveoflove said:

Do you mean that you are an ideation that imagines itself doing all these things? Like a story?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism

It seems even the story is permeated with what you really are. Is not the trying to not imagine just more imagination that the idea of you is doing the stopping of imagination? I think that's what you're saying, no?

I love the username!

[loverofall]

Mar 14, 2010 1:41:24 GMT -5 @gloveoflove said:

Do you mean that you are an ideation that imagines itself doing all these things? Like a story?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism

It seems even the story is permeated with what you really are. Is not the trying to not imagine just more imagination that the idea of you is doing the stopping of imagination? I think that's what you're saying, no?

I understand what you are saying. To think to not imagine is again a thought. Anything said here will be a concept using words to express thoughts.

Stop imagining is like hitting the shut down option on windows. It starts the process of shutting down the computer. There has to be a command to initiate the shut down (another name for pointer). Good question. It helped me something better.

[karen]

Mar 14, 2010 9:00:21 GMT -5 frankshank said:

I love the username!

My boyfriend often sings: "Stop! In the name of love...put down that rub-ber glove..."

Hey loverofall, I'm with you. I often think of the process as building a crane and wrecking-ball. Sure, we are building and using thought, but if it's towards negation than it's in the right direction IMO.

[someNOTHING!]

Hi Loverofall,

(Here's somenothing to roll around....)

It sounds like you are indeed within the process. Perhaps, you can find a balance between your rational, feeling, and intuitive minds.

Work to intuitively catch yourself at those moments when you think/feel you are on to something (and eventually, even when/if the panic/dread sets in), and just STOP for a moment,,,and truly feel that presence. Like an empty room, there's a sense of space, a vastness beyond compare. Attune all senses to What Is Present. Do this enough and you will develop a faculty to See that within this world, within this body, within this thought, within this feeling, there's IT.

Once you sense IT, then you will likely start to rationalize it...again and again. This is the limited life of the mind; always changing, always carrying on in its limited fashion. No worries, you can again work to intuitively catch yourself at those moments when you think/feel you are on to something (and eventually, even when the panic/dread sets in), and just stop for a moment and feel that presence. Like an empty room, there's a sense of space, a vastness beyond compare. Within this world, within this body, within this thought, within this feeling, there's IT as Nothing, but is also Everything (as this Feeling, this Thought, this Body, this World).

For most rational minds, this carrying on seems like doing nothing and is pointless, so its not so interesting, exciting, or reasonable (hint). So they carry on with their business of doing everything else, as if compelled by something (hint). No offense intended, but this is the ignorance of what "everything" (including themselves) truly "Is". That is, the One Isness also includes the unexplainable Nothing. That hurts the ignorant mind because it has ordered its idea everything around its importance, and therefore it feels vulnerable to Nothing, because it doesn't know it is IT, and Empty/Nothing as well.

For those who have stepped outside of and balanced the rational, feeling, and intuitive minds, that Nothing can be explained as the essence of What Is Truly Everything, yet they can also understand that IT Itself is unexplainable and, ultimately, the Reality of the Everything-Nothing continuum is to be Experienced Ever-Presently. The mind itself has a limited function on this continuum, and cannot See the Whole. As the Zenners say, "Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form". That Emptiness/Nothing As the Essence of This Everything and This Everything As the Expression of That Emptiness IS. The misunderstanding/ignorance is the mind, which is also part of IT, but only understands a part, misunderstanding that part as the Whole. Wisdom is Understanding the mind's limitations, which cannot See the power of Nothing. Love is the Understanding of the mind's limitations, which cannot See the Beauty of Everything.

Go crazy, do what you will, relax, forgive/trust yourself....carry on. Perfectly so.

[loverofall]

Thanks for the reply. I had to read that a few times and even printed it out to read.

I had been seeing intuitive mind and emotional mind as one. I do feel what you are saying and I definitely know that STOP moment. The problem is the mind tries to hold on to a stop moment and it fades away. The STOP moments are more frequent as the unfolding continues.

Lightmystics suggestion to feel your way through makes more sense too now since thinking is the whole problem. It has to be felt (intuitive and emotional minds together?). I get confused trying to see how the rational mind is part of this since it is the one blocking all this.

Crazy, relaxing, excited, scared, peaceful is all there and then a thought the whole world is a scam and a big laugh and then back to another feeling. I am glad people have emphasized that this is done living your current life or I could easily just head for the mountains for a while at this point. I get it though. This is about allowing everything. Experience, thought, emotion and sensations appear and disappear in the awareness.

Thanks.

[lightmystic]

Good point loverofall. But, it's not rational thought that's in the way so much as our identification with any thought on any level. And, yes, it's definitely true that if one is attached the rational mind, they will need to let it go, because it's not on that level. But the same is true for emotions. Usually our deepest held thoughts and assumptions have an intensely emotional component, as it can obviously get distressing when it appears that our very existence could be destroyed. And so dealing with those feelings actually allow us to start to get to the core thought. Paying attention to the Presence can be very effective too. As someNOTHING says, this direct experience, or direct feeling, is beyond any of the minds. Minds divide things in various ways, this has no division.....

Does that make sense?

Mar 14, 2010 21:57:12 GMT -5 loverofall said:

Thanks for the reply. I had to read that a few times and even printed it out to read.

I had been seeing intuitive mind and emotional mind as one. I do feel what you are saying and I definitely know that STOP moment. The problem is the mind tries to hold on to a stop moment and it fades away. The STOP moments are more frequent as the unfolding continues.

Lightmystics suggestion to feel your way through makes more sense too now since thinking is the whole problem. It has to be felt (intuitive and emotional minds together?). I get confused trying to see how the rational mind is part of this since it is the one blocking all this.

Crazy, relaxing, excited, scared, peaceful is all there and then a thought the whole world is a scam and a big laugh and then back to another feeling. I am glad people have emphasized that this is done living your current life or I could easily just head for the mountains for a while at this point. I get it though. This is about allowing everything. Experience, thought, emotion and sensations appear and disappear in the awareness.

Thanks.

[loverofall]

Yes it does makes sense. Where I am lately is getting the stop moments and being aware. Allowing feelings and not looking for relief. I still think the best of the best comment on feelings you gave was feel it like you could feel that way the rest of your life. Wanting relief just puts you into desire and future which is what the conditioned mind is all about. Once I really started wanting what was appearing and thinking there is no such thing as relief things started moving.

I still would like to try Zen Dancer's hours of listening but I admit there is resistance to that. Thats probably more reason to do it.

Relaxing into it is key because frustration is always at the door and when you realize you can relax into even afflicted feelings and let go there are moments of great clarity then the mind gets involved and says when will this get over. LOL.

Its all good and then again I really have no choice in the matter. I can see that the longer I am on this path.

Thanks

[lightmystic]

Cool,

You can try hours of listening without having to stop your every day life for starters. If it becomes relevant, then you can spend more time outside of activity doing it. But listening is always available....