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Post by Reefs on Nov 19, 2024 1:58:32 GMT -5
Your true nature is eternal, non-local, non-physical. Which means at best, going with your narrative, only a tiny part of you is focused here, on earth, at this time. And even that isn't entirely correct. You've got it all backwards. "non-physical" can be heard as a denial of physicality rather than putting it into the context of a potential misinterpretation/misconception, and a distracting misconception, at that.  People who want to misinterpret are going to misinterpret.  |
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Post by inavalan on Nov 19, 2024 2:23:17 GMT -5
The way I understand it, you experience a physical reality (perceive it, and act in it) that is created by your subconscious. This applies to everything that participate in the physical-reality framework. Your beliefs and expectations shape your experience by dynamically associating your personality to one of an endless number of possible reality gestalts. This means that your subconscious doesn't show you another element of your current reality gestalt as that element experiences itself, but it shows you a subjective translation that matches your beliefs and expectations. In one of my altered-state lessons, I experienced watching at the same time others both how they perceived their experience, and how I perceived it differently according to what I believed and expected to happen in the physical-reality. For example, I saw an old man who intentionally broke his old and and deformed legs, and to my amazement, he grew back a pair of healthy rejuvenated legs. I could alternate my focus between the man's perception, as described, and my perception of him that satisfied my beliefs and expectations, in which an old man was in pain and suffering from broken legs. So, it isn't that his and my subjective physical-realities didn't meet, as if they were existing disjunct realities, but that my subjective reality was reflecting a distortion of the reality that that man was experiencing. And, actually for me it didn't matter what he was experiencing, but only what i was perceiving as being his experience. According to my beliefs and expectations, breaking your legs doesn't grow you better ones, but brings pain and suffering. In the interpretation and guidance phase of that lesson I realized, suddenly knew, that it is often the case that the more incredible the feat experienced by a more advanced co-participant in my physical-reality gestalt, the more I perceive it as intense pain and suffering. This warns me of the relative magnitude of my ignorance. What would experience be like without all those "interpretations"? My view is that all experiences are symbolic, in order to bypass distorting the direct transfer of knowledge and guidance with your beliefs and expectations. So we have to interpret what we experience when awake, when dreaming, in any projection. The experience in itself doesn't matter, and its interpretation is most useful when done from an unbiased centering in the now (leaving aside all beliefs and expectations). Revisiting the experience later won't fit your needs as well. Most people focus on memorizing the experience and labeling its elements, when actually they should focus on interpreting the experience to draw the knowledge and guidance the most appropriate for the current condition of that pupil. |
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The Truth
Nov 19, 2024 6:39:29 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by sharon on Nov 19, 2024 6:39:29 GMT -5
Alignment happens one way if there has been a realization as to the question of "what aligns, with what?", and another way, otherwise. Funny thing is though, that most of the alignment material seems to me to have been generated from the dark on that. One reason for this is simple: the biggest question is going to be the one that draws the most interest, especially for anyone who gets close to it. So the sickly guru phenomenon can be understood, at least partly, by the pull to expressing the existential truth outweighing the pull toward alignment. Said another way, you don't go to Niz or Ramana or E' for advice on weight loss. There is actually a backstory arc on that with E' that is particularly rather comical. And, one can read a value judgment into that first sentence that isn't really there, but getting into that is unwrapping a box of potential confusion. You get what you think about, whether you want it or not. It's as simple and clear as that. And that applies equally to the saint and the sinner, the sage and the ignorant. It only gets convoluted when our image of those sages doesn't match the reality of those sages, i.e. when we assume that the minds of those sages are much purer than they actually are in reality. Then we have to make up all kinds of fantastical stories to bridge that gap. Here's a nice quote: That’s a very thoughtful book. Short but immensely valuable. |
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Post by melvin on Nov 19, 2024 8:43:15 GMT -5
I have been asking ever since I became a devotee of Bhakti-Yoga this question myself, " When I die where will I go?"
" That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. And anyone who reaches it never comes back to this material world.” (Bg. 15.6)
“Vrindavana-dhama is a place of ever-increasing joy. Flowers and fruits of all seasons grow there, and that transcendental land is full of the sweet sound of various birds. All directions resound with the humming of bumblebees, and it is served with cool breezes and the waters of the Yamuna River. Vrindavana is decorated with wish-fulfilling trees wound with creepers and beautiful flowers. Its divine beauty is ornamented with the pollen of red, blue and white lotuses. The ground is made of jewels whose dazzling glory is equal to a myriad of suns rising in the sky at one time. On that ground is a garden of desire trees, which always shower divine love. In that garden is a jeweled temple whose pinnacle is made of rubies. It is decorated with various jewels, so it remains brilliantly effulgent through all seasons of the year. The temple is beautified with bright-colored canopies, glittering with various gems, and endowed with ruby-decorated coverings and jeweled gateways and arches. Its splendor is equal to millions of suns, and it is eternally free from the six waves of material miseries. In that temple there is a great golden throne inlaid with many jewels. In this way one should meditate on the divine realm of the Supreme Lord, Sri Vrindavana-dhama.” (Gautamiya Tantra 4)
“I worship that transcendental seat, known as Svetadvipa where as loving consorts the Lakshmis, in their unalloyed spiritual essence, practice the amorous service of the Supreme Lord Krishna as their only lover; where every tree is a transcendental purpose-tree; where the soil is the purpose-gem, water is nectar, every word is a song, every gait is a dance, the flute is the favorite attendant, effulgence is full of transcendental bliss and the supreme spiritual entities are all enjoyable and tasty, where numberless milch-cows always emit transcendental oceans of milk; where there is eternal existence of transcendental time, who is ever present and without past or future and hence is not subject to the quality of passing away even for the duration of half a moment. That realm is known as Goloka only to a very few self-realized souls in this world.” (Brahma-samhita, 56)
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Post by zendancer on Nov 19, 2024 10:06:15 GMT -5
I have been asking ever since I became a devotee of Bhakti-Yoga this question myself, " When I die where will I go?" " That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. And anyone who reaches it never comes back to this material world.” (Bg. 15.6) “Vrindavana-dhama is a place of ever-increasing joy. Flowers and fruits of all seasons grow there, and that transcendental land is full of the sweet sound of various birds. All directions resound with the humming of bumblebees, and it is served with cool breezes and the waters of the Yamuna River. Vrindavana is decorated with wish-fulfilling trees wound with creepers and beautiful flowers. Its divine beauty is ornamented with the pollen of red, blue and white lotuses. The ground is made of jewels whose dazzling glory is equal to a myriad of suns rising in the sky at one time. On that ground is a garden of desire trees, which always shower divine love. In that garden is a jeweled temple whose pinnacle is made of rubies. It is decorated with various jewels, so it remains brilliantly effulgent through all seasons of the year. The temple is beautified with bright-colored canopies, glittering with various gems, and endowed with ruby-decorated coverings and jeweled gateways and arches. Its splendor is equal to millions of suns, and it is eternally free from the six waves of material miseries. In that temple there is a great golden throne inlaid with many jewels. In this way one should meditate on the divine realm of the Supreme Lord, Sri Vrindavana-dhama.” (Gautamiya Tantra 4) “I worship that transcendental seat, known as Svetadvipa where as loving consorts the Lakshmis, in their unalloyed spiritual essence, practice the amorous service of the Supreme Lord Krishna as their only lover; where every tree is a transcendental purpose-tree; where the soil is the purpose-gem, water is nectar, every word is a song, every gait is a dance, the flute is the favorite attendant, effulgence is full of transcendental bliss and the supreme spiritual entities are all enjoyable and tasty, where numberless milch-cows always emit transcendental oceans of milk; where there is eternal existence of transcendental time, who is ever present and without past or future and hence is not subject to the quality of passing away even for the duration of half a moment. That realm is known as Goloka only to a very few self-realized souls in this world.” (Brahma-samhita, 56) Where does your fist "go" when you open your hand? Where does a wave "go" when it subsides back into the ocean? Where were you before you were born? Forget all the writings about nirvana and heavenly abodes, and simply contemplate your question with sincerity and earnestness. Bring the question up periodically for review and then shift attention away from thoughts using whatever meditative activity appeals to you. The answer is already within you, but it's at a subconscious level. When the mind becomes sufficiently quiescent, a realization will occur that will give you a definitive answer to your question. All existential questions are resolved in the same way--by bearing in mind what you want to know. "Seek, and continue seeking, until you find." (The Gospel of Thomas.) |
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Post by melvin on Nov 19, 2024 12:32:37 GMT -5
I have been asking ever since I became a devotee of Bhakti-Yoga this question myself, " When I die where will I go?" " That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. And anyone who reaches it never comes back to this material world.” (Bg. 15.6) “Vrindavana-dhama is a place of ever-increasing joy. Flowers and fruits of all seasons grow there, and that transcendental land is full of the sweet sound of various birds. All directions resound with the humming of bumblebees, and it is served with cool breezes and the waters of the Yamuna River. Vrindavana is decorated with wish-fulfilling trees wound with creepers and beautiful flowers. Its divine beauty is ornamented with the pollen of red, blue and white lotuses. The ground is made of jewels whose dazzling glory is equal to a myriad of suns rising in the sky at one time. On that ground is a garden of desire trees, which always shower divine love. In that garden is a jeweled temple whose pinnacle is made of rubies. It is decorated with various jewels, so it remains brilliantly effulgent through all seasons of the year. The temple is beautified with bright-colored canopies, glittering with various gems, and endowed with ruby-decorated coverings and jeweled gateways and arches. Its splendor is equal to millions of suns, and it is eternally free from the six waves of material miseries. In that temple there is a great golden throne inlaid with many jewels. In this way one should meditate on the divine realm of the Supreme Lord, Sri Vrindavana-dhama.” (Gautamiya Tantra 4) “I worship that transcendental seat, known as Svetadvipa where as loving consorts the Lakshmis, in their unalloyed spiritual essence, practice the amorous service of the Supreme Lord Krishna as their only lover; where every tree is a transcendental purpose-tree; where the soil is the purpose-gem, water is nectar, every word is a song, every gait is a dance, the flute is the favorite attendant, effulgence is full of transcendental bliss and the supreme spiritual entities are all enjoyable and tasty, where numberless milch-cows always emit transcendental oceans of milk; where there is eternal existence of transcendental time, who is ever present and without past or future and hence is not subject to the quality of passing away even for the duration of half a moment. That realm is known as Goloka only to a very few self-realized souls in this world.” (Brahma-samhita, 56) Where does your fist "go" when you open your hand? Where does a wave "go" when it subsides back into the ocean? Where were you before you were born? Forget all the writings about nirvana and heavenly abodes, and simply contemplate your question with sincerity and earnestness. Bring the question up periodically for review and then shift attention away from thoughts using whatever meditative activity appeals to you. The answer is already within you, but it's at a subconscious level. When the mind becomes sufficiently quiescent, a realization will occur that will give you a definitive answer to your question. All existential questions are resolved in the same way--by bearing in mind what you want to know. "Seek, and continue seeking, until you find." (The Gospel of Thomas.) The Bhagavad-gita emphasises the importance of self-realization and the pursuit of knowledge as a means to attain spiritual enlightenment. Gautamiya Tantra is a very famous tantra work and describes the ritual worship of Krishna. Brahma-samhita is a Sanskrit Pancharatra text, composed of verses of prayers believed to have been spoken by Brahma glorifying Krishna. In your reaction to them, you are telling me I will in the end definitely know the answer by constantly practicing meditation? With the fist thing when you open your hand is no longer a fist. With the wave thing, it no longer becomes a wave when it goes back to the ocean. What does these metaphors got to do with these texts I have posted? They simply answered my question where I am gonna be when I am gone. ZD, can you please give me a clear answer where you are going when your gone? Can you describe it for me? Is it a place or something? A simple answer will do. |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 19, 2024 12:47:18 GMT -5
Where does your fist "go" when you open your hand? Where does a wave "go" when it subsides back into the ocean? Where were you before you were born? Forget all the writings about nirvana and heavenly abodes, and simply contemplate your question with sincerity and earnestness. Bring the question up periodically for review and then shift attention away from thoughts using whatever meditative activity appeals to you. The answer is already within you, but it's at a subconscious level. When the mind becomes sufficiently quiescent, a realization will occur that will give you a definitive answer to your question. All existential questions are resolved in the same way--by bearing in mind what you want to know. "Seek, and continue seeking, until you find." (The Gospel of Thomas.) The Bhagavad-gita emphasises the importance of self-realization and the pursuit of knowledge as a means to attain spiritual enlightenment. Gautamiya Tantra is a very famous tantra work and describes the ritual worship of Krishna. Brahma-samhita is a Sanskrit Pancharatra text, composed of verses of prayers believed to have been spoken by Brahma glorifying Krishna. In your reaction to them, you are telling me I will in the end definitely know the answer by constantly practicing meditation? With the fist thing when you open your hand is no longer a fist. With the wave thing, it no longer becomes a wave when it goes back to the ocean. What does these metaphors got to do with these texts I have posted? They simply answered my question where I am gonna be when I am gone. ZD, can you please give me a clear answer where you are going when your gone? Can you describe it for me? Is it a place or something? A simple answer will do. The short answer is that what you are isn't going anywhere. What you are wasn't born and will never die, but until a particular realization occurs, this will not be understood. Your answer to the fist koan is not correct. In the same way, your answer to the wave koan is also not correct. The answers to all koans are beyond the mind. If you keep contemplating, "Where will I go after death?" sooner or later you'll have a realization that will definitely answer your question and put your mind to rest. Forget the holy scriptures; they will not help you find what you're looking for. They are just pointers, exactly like this post. The answers lie "within." |
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Post by melvin on Nov 19, 2024 12:57:44 GMT -5
The Bhagavad-gita emphasises the importance of self-realization and the pursuit of knowledge as a means to attain spiritual enlightenment. Gautamiya Tantra is a very famous tantra work and describes the ritual worship of Krishna. Brahma-samhita is a Sanskrit Pancharatra text, composed of verses of prayers believed to have been spoken by Brahma glorifying Krishna. In your reaction to them, you are telling me I will in the end definitely know the answer by constantly practicing meditation? With the fist thing when you open your hand is no longer a fist. With the wave thing, it no longer becomes a wave when it goes back to the ocean. What does these metaphors got to do with these texts I have posted? They simply answered my question where I am gonna be when I am gone. ZD, can you please give me a clear answer where you are going when your gone? Can you describe it for me? Is it a place or something? A simple answer will do. The short answer is that what you are isn't going anywhere. What you are wasn't born and will never die, but until a particular realization occurs, this will not be understood. Your answer to the fist koan is not correct. In the same way, your answer to the wave koan is also not correct. The answers to all koans is beyond the mind. If you keep contemplating, "Where will I go after death?" sooner or later you'll have a realization that will definitely answer your question and put your mind to rest. Forget the holy scriptures; they will not help you find what you're looking for. They are just pointers, exactly like this post. The answers lie "within." What is THAT that lies within? A word or two will do, a place I am gonna be when I am gone. I surrender. I don't actually like riddles. Since you already know, why wont you tell me the answer? Always within, always within. But never an answer. |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 19, 2024 13:17:07 GMT -5
The short answer is that what you are isn't going anywhere. What you are wasn't born and will never die, but until a particular realization occurs, this will not be understood. Your answer to the fist koan is not correct. In the same way, your answer to the wave koan is also not correct. The answers to all koans is beyond the mind. If you keep contemplating, "Where will I go after death?" sooner or later you'll have a realization that will definitely answer your question and put your mind to rest. Forget the holy scriptures; they will not help you find what you're looking for. They are just pointers, exactly like this post. The answers lie "within." What is THAT that lies within? A word or two will do, a place I am gonna be when I am gone. I surrender. I don't actually like riddles. Since you already know, why wont you tell me the answer? Always within, always within. But never an answer. You are always going to be HERE and NOW. You are never going to go anywhere else. Whether the body is alive or dead has nothing to do with who you are, and it has nothing to do with what is looking out of "your" eyes, or thinking "your" thoughts. The body is like a rental car, but the driver is not anything that can be imagined. Asking "Where will I be after the body dies?" is like asking "Who am I, really?" An intellectual answer in words is not going to be satisfactory. The truth has be seen directly. |
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Post by melvin on Nov 19, 2024 17:20:52 GMT -5
What is THAT that lies within? A word or two will do, a place I am gonna be when I am gone. I surrender. I don't actually like riddles. Since you already know, why wont you tell me the answer? Always within, always within. But never an answer. You are always going to be HERE and NOW. You are never going to go anywhere else. Whether the body is alive or dead has nothing to do with who you are, and it has nothing to do with what is looking out of "your" eyes, or thinking "your" thoughts. The body is like a rental car, but the driver is not anything that can be imagined. Asking "Where will I be after the body dies?" is like asking "Who am I, really?" An intellectual answer in words is not going to be satisfactory. The truth has be seen directly. Ramana Maharishi before he took his last breathe was chanting the Om mantra. Nisagardatta Maharaj before he died chanted, " Jaya Guru Datta." In the Krishna consciousness movement, if you chant the Hare Krishna mantra before death is where you gonna be. So, what does it tells you? We should be careful with our last thoughts prior to death. That last thought is where we gonna be. |
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Post by Reefs on Nov 19, 2024 22:34:06 GMT -5
You are always going to be HERE and NOW. You are never going to go anywhere else. Whether the body is alive or dead has nothing to do with who you are, and it has nothing to do with what is looking out of "your" eyes, or thinking "your" thoughts. The body is like a rental car, but the driver is not anything that can be imagined. Asking "Where will I be after the body dies?" is like asking "Who am I, really?" An intellectual answer in words is not going to be satisfactory. The truth has be seen directly. Ramana Maharishi before he took his last breathe was chanting the Om mantra. Nisagardatta Maharaj before he died chanted, " Jaya Guru Datta." In the Krishna consciousness movement, if you chant the Hare Krishna mantra before death is where you gonna be. So, what does it tells you? We should be careful with our last thoughts prior to death. That last thought is where we gonna be. Ramana is in the OM mantra now? 
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Post by Reefs on Nov 19, 2024 22:38:45 GMT -5
What is THAT that lies within? A word or two will do, a place I am gonna be when I am gone. I surrender. I don't actually like riddles. Since you already know, why wont you tell me the answer? Always within, always within. But never an answer. You are always going to be HERE and NOW. You are never going to go anywhere else. Whether the body is alive or dead has nothing to do with who you are, and it has nothing to do with what is looking out of "your" eyes, or thinking "your" thoughts. The body is like a rental car, but the driver is not anything that can be imagined. Asking "Where will I be after the body dies?" is like asking "Who am I, really?" An intellectual answer in words is not going to be satisfactory. The truth has be seen directly. Right, it's an existential question. And while there may be answers within a certain mental model of reality that could even prove useful, those answers are not satisfying in the end, because ultimately, all existential questions are misconceived. |
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Post by Reefs on Nov 19, 2024 22:54:19 GMT -5
You get what you think about, whether you want it or not. It's as simple and clear as that. And that applies equally to the saint and the sinner, the sage and the ignorant. It only gets convoluted when our image of those sages doesn't match the reality of those sages, i.e. when we assume that the minds of those sages are much purer than they actually are in reality. Then we have to make up all kinds of fantastical stories to bridge that gap. Here's a nice quote: That’s a very thoughtful book. Short but immensely valuable. I don't agree 100% with what's in the book, but yes, it's really good, short and to the point.
Here's another quote from the book: This basically explains the sickly guru paradox. |
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Post by Reefs on Nov 19, 2024 23:01:42 GMT -5
What would experience be like without all those "interpretations"? My view is that all experiences are symbolic, in order to bypass distorting the direct transfer of knowledge and guidance with your beliefs and expectations. So we have to interpret what we experience when awake, when dreaming, in any projection. The experience in itself doesn't matter, and its interpretation is most useful when done from an unbiased centering in the now (leaving aside all beliefs and expectations). Revisiting the experience later won't fit your needs as well. Most people focus on memorizing the experience and labeling its elements, when actually they should focus on interpreting the experience to draw the knowledge and guidance the most appropriate for the current condition of that pupil. Okay, so your basic premise is that there's a definite purpose. Which means everything that happens in your world has to be seen thru that lens.
Now, what I meant with my question was this: What if there is no such definite purpose? What if life experience doesn't require such constant 'interpretations'? What would life experience be like?
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Post by Reefs on Nov 19, 2024 23:08:49 GMT -5
I looked up RM's last words. According to chatgpt, it was "I am not the body, I am the Self" which sounds like what a scholar would say, and therefore seems a bit odd and not accurate.
But according to Robert Adams, it allegedly was "Has anyone fed the peacock yet?” - that's true Zen! |
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