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Post by laughter on Jun 6, 2024 6:10:36 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with this Foster dude, but I will say I respect that it takes some bravery to show his face and share his specific life journey in audio/video format like that. And admit to his mistakes, that all humans make in some form. Don't get too comfy criticizing from the anonymous sidelines! He's the author of this, which is a nondual classic, some of the best spiritual comedy ever composed: On one level, insightful. But, you see, the Brown Bear, he isn't wrong, only ... confused ..  The flip side to Jeff's insight here is an egoic rejection of where nonduality seems to point from a personal perspective. This is a theme written all over the past contentious megathreads on this forum, for which I proclaim my own, mea culpa.  |
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Post by laughter on Jun 6, 2024 6:48:02 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with this Foster dude, but I will say I respect that it takes some bravery to show his face and share his specific life journey in audio/video format like that. And admit to his mistakes, that all humans make in some form. Don't get too comfy criticizing from the anonymous sidelines! The existential truth is inherently unpalatable to yer typical people-peep living out the conventional state of mind. At the extremes, this expresses as violence, like, say, as one example, the purge of the Gnostics. It's easy for a positive humanistic message like Jeff's to gain traction and popularity. Cultures that point to the truth, on the other hand, tend both to obscurity, but also, keep re-asserting in the culture over time. Gee, I wonder, why is that?  |
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Post by Reefs on Jun 6, 2024 13:05:54 GMT -5
Bingo! Although, if both Jeff and his followers would listen to their inner guidance, they could and would know, of course.
And we've seen it here before, too. Some people making a claim to ultimate truth, SR and stuff and then having to issue a correction several years later, because their perspective has changed, regretting their premature claims.
When it comes to SR, I'd say a good indicator for seekers that there is some monkey-minding involved in those full circle claims is when someone's teaching or perspective is slowly and gradually changing. Because SR doesn't happen that way. But rearranging of one's mental furniture happens exactly that way. SR is when lightening hits, when suddenly a switch gets flipped, a 'calamity' in UG's words. SR is not a nice journey thru different conceptual landscapes that brings you to ever new vistas, that's philosophizing. It's important to know that difference.
Yes. Hard for someone who has never heard a melody to hum it. It's only human to project some of the shadows of the realization onto oneself, and the false movement of mind, the fake "I", can never express honesty. Butt... aren't you a bit too pessimistic here? After all, there is only what you are, right? Or as Niz put it, consciousness talking to consciousness about consciousness. Or maybe let's go with Ramana, behind the fake 'I' is the real 'I'. So the fake 'I' is just an arbitrary boundary. Or said differently, the fake 'I' is the real 'I'!
How's my advaita logic? 
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Post by laughter on Jun 6, 2024 13:16:58 GMT -5
Yes. Hard for someone who has never heard a melody to hum it. It's only human to project some of the shadows of the realization onto oneself, and the false movement of mind, the fake "I", can never express honesty. Butt... aren't you a bit too pessimistic here? After all, there is only what you are, right? Or as Niz put it, consciousness talking to consciousness about consciousness. Or maybe let's go with Ramana, behind the fake 'I' is the real 'I'. So the fake 'I' is just an arbitrary boundary. Or said differently, the fake 'I' is the real 'I'!
How's my advaita logic? Stop right there! All eyes are only ever nascent sprouts appearing on the skin of the all encompassing Cosmic Potato! |
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Post by lolly on Jun 6, 2024 17:03:28 GMT -5
I think the primary obstacle is the notion that It is different to what already is such that you'd think this and the way you are now is not the thing you seek, but the way I look at it is, just stop and see. You'll notice everything continues on anyway, just as it is, the ideas and choices and activities, in the same way... but as if 'that's how it is' rather than a particular involvement of agency, and it's a huge relief and more productive just to let it play out, and also enables happiness to arise from a deep place.
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Post by sharon on Jun 6, 2024 17:12:43 GMT -5
I think the primary obstacle is the notion that It is different to what already is such that you'd think this and the way you are now is not the thing you seek, but the way I look at it is, just stop and see. You'll notice everything continues on anyway, just as it is, the ideas and choices and activities, in the same way... but as if 'that's how it is' rather than a particular involvement of agency, and it's a huge relief and more productive just to let it play out, and also enables happiness to arise from a deep place. Gratitude tends to rise up as well. |
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Post by Reefs on Jun 7, 2024 13:32:23 GMT -5
I think the primary obstacle is the notion that It is different to what already is such that you'd think this and the way you are now is not the thing you seek, but the way I look at it is, just stop and see. You'll notice everything continues on anyway, just as it is, the ideas and choices and activities, in the same way... but as if 'that's how it is' rather than a particular involvement of agency, and it's a huge relief and more productive just to let it play out, and also enables happiness to arise from a deep place.
Yes, agreed. However, I don't see agency as a problem. After all, this 'hands in the clay feeling' is as good as it gets. So agency from the extensions of Source perspective is exhilarating, from the perspective of separation though, it often is seen as a burden.
Also, people seem to expect a continuum from ignorance to full enlightenment, some even seem to expect an open ended continuum. In reality though, there is no continuum, there's a gap! That's why we use concepts like acausal, grace or the gateless gate. That's very hard to grasp for most people.
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Post by sharon on Jun 7, 2024 16:45:59 GMT -5
I think the primary obstacle is the notion that It is different to what already is such that you'd think this and the way you are now is not the thing you seek, but the way I look at it is, just stop and see. You'll notice everything continues on anyway, just as it is, the ideas and choices and activities, in the same way... but as if 'that's how it is' rather than a particular involvement of agency, and it's a huge relief and more productive just to let it play out, and also enables happiness to arise from a deep place.
Yes, agreed. However, I don't see agency as a problem. After all, this 'hands in the clay feeling' is as good as it gets. So agency from the extensions of Source perspective is exhilarating, from the perspective of separation though, it often is seen as a burden.
Also, people seem to expect a continuum from ignorance to full enlightenment, some even seem to expect an open ended continuum. In reality though, there is no continuum, there's a gap! That's why we use concepts like acausal, grace or the gateless gate. That's very hard to grasp for most people. PM: You talked about grace. Could you explain what that means? Alan Jacobs: Effort and grace are interlinked. You can’t actually do Self-enquiry in the conventional sense but you have to make the effort in that direction. As the Gita says, if the Self perceives that you want to achieve Self-realization, it becomes your friend. Then effort and grace become interlinked. With the effort of Self-enquiry and Self-surrender, grace happens. So in other words, you are prompted to the next step, you’re given more understanding, you become more mature and you begin to see the end of it all in yourself. You find you have the possibility of accessing the Self to a certain point. Sri Ramana has put it very succinctly—he says there is no effort without grace and no grace without effort. PM: So what actually is grace? Alan Jacobs: Grace is totally unmerited revelation. You appear to be stuck—you reach a kind of spiritual atrophy as if you don’t know quite what to do next. You’ve been thinking that you have been doing this and nothing is happening, that you’re still caught up in mind the whole time. Then, all of a sudden, you get some sort of insight and understanding and you are able to move on, with a completely fresh start. You become revitalized. Then you may be directed to write books, to read, to meet certain people. The right circumstances arise and your life becomes ordered. That’s the grace. Although no thought force goes in vain, you can’t do it on your own. You need the coup de grâce, the blow of grace, to actually complete it. To come into the orbit of this teaching is itself grace. Anyone who comes into the orbit of the teaching is already under the influence of grace and little by little, they are led in the right direction. www.theculturium.com/alan-jacobs-who-am-i/ |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 7, 2024 17:45:42 GMT -5
Yes, agreed. However, I don't see agency as a problem. After all, this 'hands in the clay feeling' is as good as it gets. So agency from the extensions of Source perspective is exhilarating, from the perspective of separation though, it often is seen as a burden. Also, people seem to expect a continuum from ignorance to full enlightenment, some even seem to expect an open ended continuum. In reality though, there is no continuum, there's a gap! That's why we use concepts like acausal, grace or the gateless gate. That's very hard to grasp for most people. PM: You talked about grace. Could you explain what that means? Alan Jacobs: Effort and grace are interlinked. You can’t actually do Self-enquiry in the conventional sense but you have to make the effort in that direction. As the Gita says, if the Self perceives that you want to achieve Self-realization, it becomes your friend. Then effort and grace become interlinked. With the effort of Self-enquiry and Self-surrender, grace happens. So in other words, you are prompted to the next step, you’re given more understanding, you become more mature and you begin to see the end of it all in yourself. You find you have the possibility of accessing the Self to a certain point. Sri Ramana has put it very succinctly—he says there is no effort without grace and no grace without effort. PM: So what actually is grace? Alan Jacobs: Grace is totally unmerited revelation. You appear to be stuck—you reach a kind of spiritual atrophy as if you don’t know quite what to do next. You’ve been thinking that you have been doing this and nothing is happening, that you’re still caught up in mind the whole time. Then, all of a sudden, you get some sort of insight and understanding and you are able to move on, with a completely fresh start. You become revitalized. Then you may be directed to write books, to read, to meet certain people. The right circumstances arise and your life becomes ordered. That’s the grace. Although no thought force goes in vain, you can’t do it on your own. You need the coup de grâce, the blow of grace, to actually complete it. To come into the orbit of this teaching is itself grace. Anyone who comes into the orbit of the teaching is already under the influence of grace and little by little, they are led in the right direction. www.theculturium.com/alan-jacobs-who-am-i/This is heavily peppered throughout by Jacobs second generation Gurdjieff teaching from Kenneth Walker and others. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ At the time, I didn’t quite know what to make of this. But I had a friend who was well up on spiritual matters and I told him about it and he said that I should go and see Kenneth Walker, who was one of the leading teachers of the Gurdjieff method in England. I was 27 at this point. I went to Kenneth Walker and he asked me to come along to his discussion group. I was very impressed with him. I actually loved him in the sense that he as a very genuine person. I then got involved in the Gurdjieff Society as it seemed to fulfil all my needs. I liked the people and the teaching appealed to me and it turns you into someone with spiritual muscle. PM: Which tradition did Gurdjieff draw on? Alan Jacobs: Mainly Sufi but it’s a Westernized version that has been customized. He found the Sufis during his tour of the Middle East. Fundamentally, the principles are that everything you do should be done with attention. Man is asleep and in order to wake up, it is a question of attention. There is a teaching where the central focus is called Self-Remembering. The effort is to remember the Self. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I found this interesting, hadn't run into it previously. Alan Jacobs said: Bhagavan said that once you come into the orbit of the teaching, you are on the way out to another plane of being, which isn’t samsara, the whirlpool of recycling birth and death. You move to another state of being, another plane of existence. People asked Bhagavan what he meant by this to which he replied that you would only find out when you get there. |
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Post by lolly on Jun 7, 2024 19:25:08 GMT -5
I think the primary obstacle is the notion that It is different to what already is such that you'd think this and the way you are now is not the thing you seek, but the way I look at it is, just stop and see. You'll notice everything continues on anyway, just as it is, the ideas and choices and activities, in the same way... but as if 'that's how it is' rather than a particular involvement of agency, and it's a huge relief and more productive just to let it play out, and also enables happiness to arise from a deep place.
Yes, agreed. However, I don't see agency as a problem. After all, this 'hands in the clay feeling' is as good as it gets. So agency from the extensions of Source perspective is exhilarating, from the perspective of separation though, it often is seen as a burden.
Also, people seem to expect a continuum from ignorance to full enlightenment, some even seem to expect an open ended continuum. In reality though, there is no continuum, there's a gap! That's why we use concepts like acausal, grace or the gateless gate. That's very hard to grasp for most people.
I am making decisions, taking action and engaging with the whole world personally, but it's more like I just do the things rather than trying to make things happen, so I don't have the extra weight that drains my energy, but things go wrong and it's gets to me, so I have a little saying, which is, "It's fine". |
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Post by Reefs on Jun 7, 2024 22:16:07 GMT -5
Yes, agreed. However, I don't see agency as a problem. After all, this 'hands in the clay feeling' is as good as it gets. So agency from the extensions of Source perspective is exhilarating, from the perspective of separation though, it often is seen as a burden. Also, people seem to expect a continuum from ignorance to full enlightenment, some even seem to expect an open ended continuum. In reality though, there is no continuum, there's a gap! That's why we use concepts like acausal, grace or the gateless gate. That's very hard to grasp for most people. PM: You talked about grace. Could you explain what that means? Alan Jacobs: Effort and grace are interlinked. You can’t actually do Self-enquiry in the conventional sense but you have to make the effort in that direction. As the Gita says, if the Self perceives that you want to achieve Self-realization, it becomes your friend. Then effort and grace become interlinked. With the effort of Self-enquiry and Self-surrender, grace happens. So in other words, you are prompted to the next step, you’re given more understanding, you become more mature and you begin to see the end of it all in yourself. You find you have the possibility of accessing the Self to a certain point. Sri Ramana has put it very succinctly—he says there is no effort without grace and no grace without effort. PM: So what actually is grace? Alan Jacobs: Grace is totally unmerited revelation. You appear to be stuck—you reach a kind of spiritual atrophy as if you don’t know quite what to do next. You’ve been thinking that you have been doing this and nothing is happening, that you’re still caught up in mind the whole time. Then, all of a sudden, you get some sort of insight and understanding and you are able to move on, with a completely fresh start. You become revitalized. Then you may be directed to write books, to read, to meet certain people. The right circumstances arise and your life becomes ordered. That’s the grace. Although no thought force goes in vain, you can’t do it on your own. You need the coup de grâce, the blow of grace, to actually complete it. To come into the orbit of this teaching is itself grace. Anyone who comes into the orbit of the teaching is already under the influence of grace and little by little, they are led in the right direction. www.theculturium.com/alan-jacobs-who-am-i/This is key. And it's probably the most difficult concept to accept for seekers. Because the seeker approach is totally merit-based, as is religion in general. See Emperor Wu and Bodhidharma. The merit-based approach is also one of the reasons why there is such a comparative and competitive mindset in spiritual communities. Enlightenment, liberation is pursued like a career path. |
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Post by Reefs on Jun 7, 2024 22:38:43 GMT -5
Yes, agreed. However, I don't see agency as a problem. After all, this 'hands in the clay feeling' is as good as it gets. So agency from the extensions of Source perspective is exhilarating, from the perspective of separation though, it often is seen as a burden. Also, people seem to expect a continuum from ignorance to full enlightenment, some even seem to expect an open ended continuum. In reality though, there is no continuum, there's a gap! That's why we use concepts like acausal, grace or the gateless gate. That's very hard to grasp for most people.
I am making decisions, taking action and engaging with the whole world personally, but it's more like I just do the things rather than trying to make things happen, so I don't have the extra weight that drains my energy, but things go wrong and it's gets to me, so I have a little saying, which is, "It's fine".
Yes, that's the idea behind wu-wei (aka non-doing, or "not forcing" in AW lingo) or "allowing" in A-H lingo.
Also, things never go 'wrong', because LOA (or LOK if you insist) is the universal manager and LOA is very precise, very reliable and also 100% neutral in reflecting your actual state of being. GIGO, basically. So whatever happens, happens perfectly so.
There may be a gap though between what you expect to happen and what actually happens because of a gap in self-awareness of what your actual state of being is and what you think it is or should be (self-image or ego). And when your projected manifestation based on that self-image doesn't match your actual manifestation, it seems that 'things have gone wrong'. But what's 'wrong' here is just your self-image. It doesn't match up with your actual state of being. So, you have to adjust your self-image and recalibrate. Saying "It's fine" and being aware that it is an indicator is the first step to improvement. But saying "It's fine" without being aware that it is an indicator is happy-face-stickering. Which is the reason why I disagree with the BK approach.
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Post by tenka on Jun 8, 2024 13:21:57 GMT -5
I watched for 5 minutes. Maybe it's cultural bias, but I find him very likeable. Very open. I wasn't quite clear of the intention of the video, but maybe it comes clear after 5 minutes. Yer I agree he is likeable, and honest about his u-turn and new perspective. I agreed with the cult like status non duality seems to create amongst followers. I mean most on this forum have experienced non duality types that only sing from one hymn sheet and dare not venture from it. I suppose when your in it neck high, it's hard to see that you are. |
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Post by andrew on Jun 8, 2024 22:44:05 GMT -5
I watched for 5 minutes. Maybe it's cultural bias, but I find him very likeable. Very open. I wasn't quite clear of the intention of the video, but maybe it comes clear after 5 minutes. Yer I agree he is likeable, and honest about his u-turn and new perspective. I agreed with the cult like status non duality seems to create amongst followers. I mean most on this forum have experienced non duality types that only sing from one hymn sheet and dare not venture from it. I suppose when your in it neck high, it's hard to see that you are. Yep. I speculate that when one is 'neck high', then humbleness might be the way out. But this cannot be contrived. It's not something we can just 'do'. In a sense, if we were choosing it, it wouldn't be humble. The word 'Grace' springs to mind here. I've thought of you a couple of times in the last 48 hours, had a couple of odd 'spiritual experiences'. Might come back to this. |
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Post by andrew on Jun 9, 2024 23:01:00 GMT -5
I watched for 5 minutes. Maybe it's cultural bias, but I find him very likeable. Very open. I wasn't quite clear of the intention of the video, but maybe it comes clear after 5 minutes. Yer I agree he is likeable, and honest about his u-turn and new perspective. I agreed with the cult like status non duality seems to create amongst followers. I mean most on this forum have experienced non duality types that only sing from one hymn sheet and dare not venture from it. I suppose when your in it neck high, it's hard to see that you are. Got a bit more time now to expand on those 'experiences'. Starting about 3 days ago and continuing today, I'd be sitting at the house or in the car, and out of nowhere, feel intensely pulled within. Have to go with it. It feels a little like suddenly falling asleep, except it's also different in a way that's slightly hard to express. The sense of 'world' fades, and then any sense of 'body' goes real fast, and I am left with nothing more than an intense state of 'light'. It's completely non-functional. Then there might be another pull (not always) and it's into darkness, again similar to deep sleep, but not quite the same. And then suddenly, without any choice made, I am pushed out of it and back into experience. It might all happen in a few seconds or a few minutes, it's not quite clear to me after. It's been a little disconcerting but not unpleasant. I'm not saying it's the same as what you experienced, but perhaps it is relatable. Jenn reckons I am receiving 'codes', which sort of feels true in that afterwards I have a vague sense of 'information' having been given. Either that, or I have developed narcolepsy lol I'm willing to bet there's something pretty big coming in the world in the not distant future. |
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The flip side to Jeff's insight here is an egoic rejection of where nonduality seems to point from a personal perspective. This is a theme written all over the past contentious megathreads on this forum, for which I proclaim my own, mea culpa. 
