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Post by zendancer on May 6, 2024 13:16:25 GMT -5
Yes, all that one can do if one wants to find the truth are those things most highly correlated with existential discoveries. Letting go of attachment to one's ideas is a big help and thereby adopting a "beginner's mind" (an open mind)--something quite difficult for long-time seekers who have all kinds of entrenched ideas about what is necessary. Other activities that are highly correlated include: 1. Meditation (shifting attention away from habitual thoughts that reinforce a dualistic and self-referential POV) 2. Spending time alone while contemplating existential questions3. Walking in nature4. Self enquiry 5. Face to face interactions with people who have discovered what's going on, who are willing to give honest feedback, and who want nothing from anyone 6. Reading spiritual literature7. Watching YouTube video talks given by well-respected sages 8. Keeping attention focused on whatever is happening NOWIn my experience the bolded are the most beneficial ways to identify any 'distorting thoughts' and with that comes the ability to sever the emotional connection to them. No one really wants to stay crippled by them and the cut does not have to keep being made. Yes, severing the emotional connection is highly important because most people get jerked around by their unexamined evaluations of what's going on. They worry about what other people think, they second-guess themselves, they beat themselves up with self-referentially negative thoughts, fantasize about the future, and waste a lot of energy resisting the way reality unfolds. As Byron Katie says, "If you fight against reality, you will always lose."  |
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Post by sharon on May 6, 2024 15:31:21 GMT -5
In my experience the bolded are the most beneficial ways to identify any 'distorting thoughts' and with that comes the ability to sever the emotional connection to them. No one really wants to stay crippled by them and the cut does not have to keep being made. Yes, severing the emotional connection is highly important because most people get jerked around by their unexamined evaluations of what's going on. They worry about what other people think, they second-guess themselves, they beat themselves up with self-referentially negative thoughts, fantasize about the future, and waste a lot of energy resisting the way reality unfolds. As Byron Katie says, "If you fight against reality, you will always lose." Yeah, What Is is amazingly reliable. |
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Post by laughter on May 6, 2024 23:05:54 GMT -5
Yes, severing the emotional connection is highly important because most people get jerked around by their unexamined evaluations of what's going on. They worry about what other people think, they second-guess themselves, they beat themselves up with self-referentially negative thoughts, fantasize about the future, and waste a lot of energy resisting the way reality unfolds. As Byron Katie says, "If you fight against reality, you will always lose." Yeah, What Is is amazingly reliable. Sadly though, for some folks, at some times, the severance can be more like when a lizard loses it's tail or cutting a dandelion stem rather than, well, .. never mind.  So the purifiers can have a point about getting to the roots of various matters. Of course, as always, it depends. |
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Post by sharon on May 7, 2024 2:24:33 GMT -5
Yeah, What Is is amazingly reliable. Sadly though, for some folks, at some times, the severance can be more like when a lizard loses it's tail or cutting a dandelion stem rather than, well, .. never mind. So the purifiers can have a point about getting to the roots of various matters. Of course, as always, it depends. It seems that you hoped to cover quite a spectrum in your point, but you knowingly ran out of steam.. Who is it sad for? And why would you Nevermind about the regrowing of a perfect tail on a lizard, or a dandelion flower regrowing to feed a bee just coming out of hibernation in Spring? |
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Post by Damian3 on May 7, 2024 5:06:29 GMT -5
I don't blame you. Most people here still are or have been there, too. It's the "unknown unknowns" dilemma. There's no pre-SR solution to this. Pre-SR, you have no choice but see everything thru the self-improvement lens, even if you don't want to. It's a hardware problem so to speak. No amount of software upgrades is going to help you here. That's our dilemma in these talks. Yes, all that one can do if one wants to find the truth are those things most highly correlated with existential discoveries. Letting go of attachment to one's ideas is a big help and thereby adopting a "beginner's mind" (an open mind)--something quite difficult for long-time seekers who have all kinds of entrenched ideas about what is necessary. Other activities that are highly correlated include: 1. Meditation (shifting attention away from habitual thoughts that reinforce a dualistic and self-referential POV) 2. Spending time alone while contemplating existential questions 3. Walking in nature 4. Self enquiry 5. Face to face interactions with people who have discovered what's going on, who are willing to give honest feedback, and who want nothing from anyone 6. Reading spiritual literature 7. Watching YouTube video talks given by well-respected sages 8. Keeping attention focused on whatever is happening NOW |
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Post by Damian3 on May 7, 2024 5:07:55 GMT -5
I don't blame you. Most people here still are or have been there, too. It's the "unknown unknowns" dilemma. There's no pre-SR solution to this. Pre-SR, you have no choice but see everything thru the self-improvement lens, even if you don't want to. It's a hardware problem so to speak. No amount of software upgrades is going to help you here. That's our dilemma in these talks. Yes, all that one can do if one wants to find the truth are those things most highly correlated with existential discoveries. Letting go of attachment to one's ideas is a big help and thereby adopting a "beginner's mind" (an open mind)--something quite difficult for long-time seekers who have all kinds of entrenched ideas about what is necessary. Other activities that are highly correlated include: 1. Meditation (shifting attention away from habitual thoughts that reinforce a dualistic and self-referential POV) 2. Spending time alone while contemplating existential questions 3. Walking in nature 4. Self enquiry 5. Face to face interactions with people who have discovered what's going on, who are willing to give honest feedback, and who want nothing from anyone 6. Reading spiritual literature 7. Watching YouTube video talks given by well-respected sages 8. Keeping attention focused on whatever is happening NOW CAn you give some recommendations for number 7? |
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Post by zendancer on May 7, 2024 8:15:59 GMT -5
Yes, all that one can do if one wants to find the truth are those things most highly correlated with existential discoveries. Letting go of attachment to one's ideas is a big help and thereby adopting a "beginner's mind" (an open mind)--something quite difficult for long-time seekers who have all kinds of entrenched ideas about what is necessary. Other activities that are highly correlated include: 1. Meditation (shifting attention away from habitual thoughts that reinforce a dualistic and self-referential POV) 2. Spending time alone while contemplating existential questions 3. Walking in nature 4. Self enquiry 5. Face to face interactions with people who have discovered what's going on, who are willing to give honest feedback, and who want nothing from anyone 6. Reading spiritual literature 7. Watching YouTube video talks given by well-respected sages 8. Keeping attention focused on whatever is happening NOW CAn you give some recommendations for number 7? Sure. Check out YouTube videos of Angelo Dilullo, Suzanne Chang, Rupert Spira, Adyashanti, Eckhart Tolle, Gangaji, Mooji, etc. There are also dozens of good interviews on sites such as batgap.com. Dilullo interviews lots of people who have discovered THIS, and some of them are extremely helpful and interesting to seekers. Some people have to process a lot of trauma and repressed garbage, and some people don't, because every human is unique. I've noticed that, generally speaking, people who are "feelers" find the truth differently than people who are primarily "thinkers." Depending upon how one relates to the world one will probably resonate with people who relate to the world in the same way. Dilullo, for example, has an interview with Suzanne Chang, and both of them seem to have dealt with the same kinds of repressed feelings that had to be released, whereas other "finders" find the truth and get free in an entirely different way. |
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Post by laughter on May 8, 2024 10:45:49 GMT -5
Sadly though, for some folks, at some times, the severance can be more like when a lizard loses it's tail or cutting a dandelion stem rather than, well, .. never mind. So the purifiers can have a point about getting to the roots of various matters. Of course, as always, it depends. It seems that you hoped to cover quite a spectrum in your point, but you knowingly ran out of steam.. Who is it sad for? And why would you Nevermind about the regrowing of a perfect tail on a lizard, or a dandelion flower regrowing to feed a bee just coming out of hibernation in Spring? Dandelion wine is a sweet buzz, for sure, and lizards are as perfect as any of God's creatures, no doubt. Mind weeds and brain tails ... not so much!  |
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Post by lolly on May 18, 2024 7:25:24 GMT -5
The eye isn't a camera. The optic nerve attaches at the back of the eye, so there are no rods or cones there, so nothing there to perceive light. If the eye were a camera we would have a hole in the center of our vision. We don't, the mind/brain patches over the hole so that we see a uniform view of the world, no breaks, no hole. So the mind/brain creates an illusion of wholeness. Here is my question. Before SR there is a seeming self which operates in the world, makes choices, acts. I think we are on the same page that the so-called self is a result of conditioning. So, SR is the recognition, realization, that there is no self, no separate self, no volitional self (on this I agree, always have, concerning the small s self, yesterday called the self-avatar). But yet the conditioning continues to operate in the world. It appears there is a self operating, someone, an ordinary person looking from the outside would see a self operating in the world. Before SR the illusory self operating in the world doesn't operate without error, or always according to truth or actuality. The very nature of the illusory self is to be a distorting factor, a distorting lens, at least somewhat. Some conditioning is more distorting, some less, less efficient, more efficient. So after SR the distortions still exist, that's pretty obvious to me. The now-non-person still functions through the former conditioning. The SR now-non-person will even argue that it's not necessary for the conditioning to be altered in any way, that's the argument against purification. See my dilemma? If SR is seeing the truth as truth and the false as false, why doesn't distorting conditioning drop away? If you say it doesn't matter or there is no distortion post SR, I say you have a blind spot. Objectivity doesn't exist post SR. All this is why I maintain that purification is necessary. If your paradigm doesn't account for all this, it deficient. I somewhat spoke to all this yesterday in reply. I suppose this is where 3 months has left me, to sum up. It's not that it doesn't need to be altered; it's just that you don't need to alter it. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 18, 2024 10:11:13 GMT -5
The eye isn't a camera. The optic nerve attaches at the back of the eye, so there are no rods or cones there, so nothing there to perceive light. If the eye were a camera we would have a hole in the center of our vision. We don't, the mind/brain patches over the hole so that we see a uniform view of the world, no breaks, no hole. So the mind/brain creates an illusion of wholeness. Here is my question. Before SR there is a seeming self which operates in the world, makes choices, acts. I think we are on the same page that the so-called self is a result of conditioning. So, SR is the recognition, realization, that there is no self, no separate self, no volitional self (on this I agree, always have, concerning the small s self, yesterday called the self-avatar). But yet the conditioning continues to operate in the world. It appears there is a self operating, someone, an ordinary person looking from the outside would see a self operating in the world. Before SR the illusory self operating in the world doesn't operate without error, or always according to truth or actuality. The very nature of the illusory self is to be a distorting factor, a distorting lens, at least somewhat. Some conditioning is more distorting, some less, less efficient, more efficient. So after SR the distortions still exist, that's pretty obvious to me. The now-non-person still functions through the former conditioning. The SR now-non-person will even argue that it's not necessary for the conditioning to be altered in any way, that's the argument against purification. See my dilemma? If SR is seeing the truth as truth and the false as false, why doesn't distorting conditioning drop away? If you say it doesn't matter or there is no distortion post SR, I say you have a blind spot. Objectivity doesn't exist post SR. All this is why I maintain that purification is necessary. If your paradigm doesn't account for all this, it deficient. I somewhat spoke to all this yesterday in reply. I suppose this is where 3 months has left me, to sum up. It's not that it doesn't need to be altered; it's just that you don't need to alter it. This is the whole conundrum. I agree, the avatar-self can't do anything (except in a certain sense, submit). But the ND people then say nothing can be done, it's a movement of the whole. I was actually going to post on this, so I'll finish there, a reply to myself, the quote from the Putting Ourselves book. But I've always maintained there's an individuated in-between, essence. Essence is the possible in-between. And living through essence is what creates the changes (awareness-attention). |
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Post by zendancer on May 19, 2024 5:17:31 GMT -5
It's not that it doesn't need to be altered; it's just that you don't need to alter it. This is the whole conundrum. I agree, the avatar-self can't do anything (except in a certain sense, submit). But the ND people then say nothing can be done, it's a movement of the whole. I was actually going to post on this, so I'll finish there, a reply to myself, the quote from the Putting Ourselves book. But I've always maintained there's an individuated in-between, essence. Essence is the possible in-between. And living through essence is what creates the changes (awareness-attention). The "avatar self" is fictitious, so it can't submit or do anything else. We talk about submission because language is dualistic, but all there is is THIS, and THIS is the only doer. There is no "me" who ever does anything, and once this is realized life becomes very simple because all of the past self-referential thinking patterns lose their effect. There's a good interview on YouTube by a woman (Transcending dualistic thinking with Violet and Dilullo, or something like that) in which Violet asks Dilullo lots of questions sent in by people about the results of his awakening. Dilullo is an anesthesiologist and I never realized until this interview that the surgeons are not the docs who keep people alive, place paddles on people's chests, and do the resuscitations, etc. There was an interesting story about a surgery that became problematic and created pandemonium in the operating room. Dilullo walked in to help and his presence calmed everyone because, in his words, "life is really simple if there's no thinking." Everything is matter-of-fact. No worries, no problems, because all the training is internalized and the body knows what to do. This is why jet pilots train on simulators--so that in an emergency the body will respond instantly and without reflection. He mentions Gary Weber and Weber's experience when thinking suddenly stopped one day. In a sense, meditative activities are a way of getting detached from habitual thinking patterns, so that the natural intelligence of the body can manifest more spontaneously. Thinking is not a problem if there is no attachment to the thinking. This is what Zen people call "non-abidance in mind." |
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Post by zazeniac on May 19, 2024 10:12:43 GMT -5
"Jardiance is really swell, a little pill with a big story to tell." The wife got me TV so I could watch the Tennis Channel. Almost as entertaining as here. Jardiance, Camsyus, Ozempic, Farxiga. My favorite is Sotyktu. No judgement. I'm just enjoying all the cool names.
The blind spot. Vasanas. It makes no sense to be in "throes" of vasanas and claim to be free. It's a joke. Maybe not THE cosmic joke, but almost as funny.
A babe cries from hunger, pain, discomfort. The ego learns to cry to get what it wants not necessarily what it needs. Manipulation begins early. The one who sees through this is blessed.
So much for thinking your way out of the blind spot.
You can say, think, believe, know you're not the self til the cows come home. It don't mean nothing.
Being free doesn't mean you don't experience anger when someone kicks the cat. There is that. You see it rise and subside and are less likely to return the favor, not in the throes. You're free.
So many words. I could pare it down, but too much trouble. The Rome Finals are on. Good luck.
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Post by zendancer on May 20, 2024 7:21:57 GMT -5
I didn't see it in person but it was all over the news here with endless replays on TV from different angles and differing cellphones. Apparently some people found some good-sized chunks of it. It was pretty amazing.
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So the purifiers can have a point about getting to the roots of various matters. Of course, as always, it depends.
