The Blind Spot

[stardustpilgrim]

The eye isn't a camera. The optic nerve attaches at the back of the eye, so there are no rods or cones there, so nothing there to perceive light. If the eye were a camera we would have a hole in the center of our vision. We don't, the mind/brain patches over the hole so that we see a uniform view of the world, no breaks, no hole. So the mind/brain creates an illusion of wholeness.

Here is my question. Before SR there is a seeming self which operates in the world, makes choices, acts. I think we are on the same page that the so-called self is a result of conditioning. So, SR is the recognition, realization, that there is no self, no separate self, no volitional self (on this I agree, always have, concerning the small s self, yesterday called the self-avatar). But yet the conditioning continues to operate in the world. It appears there is a self operating, someone, an ordinary person looking from the outside would see a self operating in the world. Before SR the illusory self operating in the world doesn't operate without error, or always according to truth or actuality. The very nature of the illusory self is to be a distorting factor, a distorting lens, at least somewhat. Some conditioning is more distorting, some less, less efficient, more efficient.

So after SR the distortions still exist, that's pretty obvious to me. The now-non-person still functions through the former conditioning. The SR now-non-person will even argue that it's not necessary for the conditioning to be altered in any way, that's the argument against purification.

See my dilemma? If SR is seeing the truth as truth and the false as false, why doesn't distorting conditioning drop away? If you say it doesn't matter or there is no distortion post SR, I say you have a blind spot. Objectivity doesn't exist post SR. All this is why I maintain that purification is necessary. If your paradigm doesn't account for all this, it deficient. I somewhat spoke to all this yesterday in reply. I suppose this is where 3 months has left me, to sum up.

[Reefs]

May 2, 2024 17:54:38 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

The eye isn't a camera. The optic nerve attaches at the back of the eye, so there are no rods or cones there, so nothing there to perceive light. If the eye were a camera we would have a hole in the center of our vision. We don't, the mind/brain patches over the hole so that we see a uniform view of the world, no breaks, no hole. So the mind/brain creates an illusion of wholeness.

Here is my question. Before SR there is a seeming self which operates in the world, makes choices, acts. I think we are on the same page that the so-called self is a result of conditioning. So, SR is the recognition, realization, that there is no self, no separate self, no volitional self (on this I agree, always have, concerning the small s self, yesterday called the self-avatar). But yet the conditioning continues to operate in the world. It appears there is a self operating, someone, an ordinary person looking from the outside would see a self operating in the world. Before SR the illusory self operating in the world doesn't operate without error, or always according to truth or actuality. The very nature of the illusory self is to be a distorting factor, a distorting lens, at least somewhat. Some conditioning is more distorting, some less, less efficient, more efficient.

So after SR the distortions still exist, that's pretty obvious to me. The now-non-person still functions through the former conditioning. The SR now-non-person will even argue that it's not necessary for the conditioning to be altered in any way, that's the argument against purification.

See my dilemma? If SR is seeing the truth as truth and the false as false, why doesn't distorting conditioning drop away? If you say it doesn't matter or there is no distortion post SR, I say you have a blind spot. Objectivity doesn't exist post SR. All this is why I maintain that purification is necessary. If your paradigm doesn't account for all this, it deficient. I somewhat spoke to all this yesterday in reply. I suppose this is where 3 months has left me, to sum up.

Your dilemma is that you have no actual reference for what you are talking about about. It's all based on conjecture and projection. Firstly, SR is not about what is seen, but how it is seen. Secondly, in the SR context, 'seeing' does not refer to the outer senses nor the inner senses, but a perspective prior to all that. Thirdly, SR is nothing newly acquired, just the re-cognition of what-is-so, of what has always been so. This is why SR is acausal and instantaneous and why the SVP has no role to play in SR. So the idea of purification is built on a number of flawed premises. It is assumed that SR is something newly acquired, that you (the SVP or body-mind) don't have yet, and that this can only happen when the outer and/or inner senses are clear. And so the conclusion is that the road to SR is a process that involves a gradual clearing and cleansing of the SVP and/or body-mind. Now, how's that been working out so far for you? I'd say it has been an abysmal failure. As it has been for all the other purifiers, too. And that is necessarily so. Because if you follow the purification road, you basically run after the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, it's always right around the corner, always almost within reach, but never here and now, in your pocket. But SR is always here and now, it's the diamond in your pocket. See your dilemma? You think you are a brick that needs polishing. But you are not a brick. And so the question about polishing that brick or not is misconceived. Like suffering, polishing bricks is optional, not mandatory.

[laughter]

May 2, 2024 17:54:38 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

The eye isn't a camera. The optic nerve attaches at the back of the eye, so there are no rods or cones there, so nothing there to perceive light. If the eye were a camera we would have a hole in the center of our vision. We don't, the mind/brain patches over the hole so that we see a uniform view of the world, no breaks, no hole. So the mind/brain creates an illusion of wholeness.

Here is my question. Before SR there is a seeming self which operates in the world, makes choices, acts. I think we are on the same page that the so-called self is a result of conditioning. So, SR is the recognition, realization, that there is no self, no separate self, no volitional self (on this I agree, always have, concerning the small s self, yesterday called the self-avatar). But yet the conditioning continues to operate in the world. It appears there is a self operating, someone, an ordinary person looking from the outside would see a self operating in the world. Before SR the illusory self operating in the world doesn't operate without error, or always according to truth or actuality. The very nature of the illusory self is to be a distorting factor, a distorting lens, at least somewhat. Some conditioning is more distorting, some less, less efficient, more efficient.

So after SR the distortions still exist, that's pretty obvious to me. The now-non-person still functions through the former conditioning. The SR now-non-person will even argue that it's not necessary for the conditioning to be altered in any way, that's the argument against purification.

See my dilemma? If SR is seeing the truth as truth and the false as false, why doesn't distorting conditioning drop away? If you say it doesn't matter or there is no distortion post SR, I say you have a blind spot. Objectivity doesn't exist post SR. All this is why I maintain that purification is necessary. If your paradigm doesn't account for all this, it deficient. I somewhat spoke to all this yesterday in reply. I suppose this is where 3 months has left me, to sum up.

Some of the conditioning can and will drop away naturally, but even before SR the nature of conditioning can be seen, quite clearly for what it is. For as long as you're drawing breath, there will be these expressions of conditions and conditioning. SR adds a new dimension onto this insight. Put more precisely, SR is a subtraction, a realization of an absence. The additional dimension to the insight about conditioning can follow from a later informing of mind.

The parable of the coin is deceptively deep water, similar to finger/moon and "beginner's mind". One way to approach this, as long as the thinking/emoting mind is left out of the approach, is to consider Billy Shakes: "there is no good nor bad but that thinking makes it so." This isn't to deny good, bad, evil or virtue, but simply to contextualize them. It does not accept evil, it suggests the possibility of clarity on the topic.

Unfortunately, judgmental ideas about good or bad conditioning are a recursive black hole, and it is at the event horizon of that black hole where you will find your blind spot. The simplest, and for some folks, the hardest pointer to the truth to accept is that the judgments are only ever a creation of mind, just like names and all other boundaries.

As for purification, it will happen if it happens, and this can be either prior-to or after SR. In my opinion, the suggestion to purify can be a wonderful invitation, or, it might just be needless negative judgment. Depends on where it's coming from.

[stardustpilgrim]

May 2, 2024 22:25:16 GMT -5 Reefs said:

May 2, 2024 17:54:38 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

The eye isn't a camera. The optic nerve attaches at the back of the eye, so there are no rods or cones there, so nothing there to perceive light. If the eye were a camera we would have a hole in the center of our vision. We don't, the mind/brain patches over the hole so that we see a uniform view of the world, no breaks, no hole. So the mind/brain creates an illusion of wholeness.

Here is my question. Before SR there is a seeming self which operates in the world, makes choices, acts. I think we are on the same page that the so-called self is a result of conditioning. So, SR is the recognition, realization, that there is no self, no separate self, no volitional self (on this I agree, always have, concerning the small s self, yesterday called the self-avatar). But yet the conditioning continues to operate in the world. It appears there is a self operating, someone, an ordinary person looking from the outside would see a self operating in the world. Before SR the illusory self operating in the world doesn't operate without error, or always according to truth or actuality. The very nature of the illusory self is to be a distorting factor, a distorting lens, at least somewhat. Some conditioning is more distorting, some less, less efficient, more efficient.

So after SR the distortions still exist, that's pretty obvious to me. The now-non-person still functions through the former conditioning. The SR now-non-person will even argue that it's not necessary for the conditioning to be altered in any way, that's the argument against purification.

See my dilemma? If SR is seeing the truth as truth and the false as false, why doesn't distorting conditioning drop away? If you say it doesn't matter or there is no distortion post SR, I say you have a blind spot. Objectivity doesn't exist post SR. All this is why I maintain that purification is necessary. If your paradigm doesn't account for all this, it deficient. I somewhat spoke to all this yesterday in reply. I suppose this is where 3 months has left me, to sum up.

Your dilemma is that you have no actual reference for what you are talking about about. It's all based on conjecture and projection. Firstly, SR is not about what is seen, but how it is seen. Secondly, in the SR context, 'seeing' does not refer to the outer senses nor the inner senses, but a perspective prior to all that. Thirdly, SR is nothing newly acquired, just the re-cognition of what-is-so, of what has always been so. This is why SR is acausal and instantaneous and why the SVP has no role to play in SR. So the idea of purification is built on a number of flawed premises. It is assumed that SR is something newly acquired, that you (the SVP or body-mind) don't have yet, and that this can only happen when the outer and/or inner senses are clear. And so the conclusion is that the road to SR is a process that involves a gradual clearing and cleansing of the SVP and/or body-mind. Now, how's that been working out so far for you? I'd say it has been an abysmal failure. As it has been for all the other purifiers, too. And that is necessarily so. Because if you follow the purification road, you basically run after the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, it's always right around the corner, always almost within reach, but never here and now, in your pocket. But SR is always here and now, it's the diamond in your pocket. See your dilemma? You think you are a brick that needs polishing. But you are not a brick. And so the question about polishing that brick or not is misconceived. Like suffering, polishing bricks is optional, not mandatory.

None of that addresses my post whatsoever.

[stardustpilgrim]

May 3, 2024 0:06:20 GMT -5 laughter said:

May 2, 2024 17:54:38 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

The eye isn't a camera. The optic nerve attaches at the back of the eye, so there are no rods or cones there, so nothing there to perceive light. If the eye were a camera we would have a hole in the center of our vision. We don't, the mind/brain patches over the hole so that we see a uniform view of the world, no breaks, no hole. So the mind/brain creates an illusion of wholeness.

Here is my question. Before SR there is a seeming self which operates in the world, makes choices, acts. I think we are on the same page that the so-called self is a result of conditioning. So, SR is the recognition, realization, that there is no self, no separate self, no volitional self (on this I agree, always have, concerning the small s self, yesterday called the self-avatar). But yet the conditioning continues to operate in the world. It appears there is a self operating, someone, an ordinary person looking from the outside would see a self operating in the world. Before SR the illusory self operating in the world doesn't operate without error, or always according to truth or actuality. The very nature of the illusory self is to be a distorting factor, a distorting lens, at least somewhat. Some conditioning is more distorting, some less, less efficient, more efficient.

So after SR the distortions still exist, that's pretty obvious to me. The now-non-person still functions through the former conditioning. The SR now-non-person will even argue that it's not necessary for the conditioning to be altered in any way, that's the argument against purification.

See my dilemma? If SR is seeing the truth as truth and the false as false, why doesn't distorting conditioning drop away? If you say it doesn't matter or there is no distortion post SR, I say you have a blind spot. Objectivity doesn't exist post SR. All this is why I maintain that purification is necessary. If your paradigm doesn't account for all this, it deficient. I somewhat spoke to all this yesterday in reply. I suppose this is where 3 months has left me, to sum up.

Some of the conditioning can and will drop away naturally, but even before SR the nature of conditioning can be seen, quite clearly for what it is. For as long as you're drawing breath, there will be these expressions of conditions and conditioning. SR adds a new dimension onto this insight. Put more precisely, SR is a subtraction, a realization of an absence. The additional dimension to the insight about conditioning can follow from a later informing of mind.

The parable of the coin is deceptively deep water, similar to finger/moon and "beginner's mind". One way to approach this, as long as the thinking/emoting mind is left out of the approach, is to consider Billy Shakes: "there is no good nor bad but that thinking makes it so." This isn't to deny good, bad, evil or virtue, but simply to contextualize them. It does not accept evil, it suggests the possibility of clarity on the topic.

Unfortunately, judgmental ideas about good or bad conditioning are a recursive black hole, and it is at the event horizon of that black hole where you will find your blind spot. The simplest, and for some folks, the hardest pointer to the truth to accept is that the judgments are only ever a creation of mind, just like names and all other boundaries.

As for purification, it will happen if it happens, and this can be either prior-to or after SR. In my opinion, the suggestion to purify can be a wonderful invitation, or, it might just be needless negative judgment. Depends on where it's coming from.

Only slightly addresses my concerns, but not in any way that helps (answer my concerns). Conditioning distorts the capacity to observe what is so, events in the world. I should think and should hope that SR would eliminate all distorting factors, to allow one to see aright. The conditioning of which the self consists, is still there post SR (the conditioning exists, a self doesn't exist, is imaginary). The distorting factors still exist within the organism, the programming. ...Some exist head and shoulders above all others, a Buddha, a Lao Tzu, a Chuang Tzu even, a Jesus, I will even buy a Ramana or a Niz, a Dogen, especially Bankei, a Yasutani. Why is this so? What *good* is SR if the distorting factors still exist within the organism? Why doesn't SR eradicate suggestibility?

[andrew]

May 2, 2024 17:54:38 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

The eye isn't a camera. The optic nerve attaches at the back of the eye, so there are no rods or cones there, so nothing there to perceive light. If the eye were a camera we would have a hole in the center of our vision. We don't, the mind/brain patches over the hole so that we see a uniform view of the world, no breaks, no hole. So the mind/brain creates an illusion of wholeness.

Here is my question. Before SR there is a seeming self which operates in the world, makes choices, acts. I think we are on the same page that the so-called self is a result of conditioning. So, SR is the recognition, realization, that there is no self, no separate self, no volitional self (on this I agree, always have, concerning the small s self, yesterday called the self-avatar). But yet the conditioning continues to operate in the world. It appears there is a self operating, someone, an ordinary person looking from the outside would see a self operating in the world. Before SR the illusory self operating in the world doesn't operate without error, or always according to truth or actuality. The very nature of the illusory self is to be a distorting factor, a distorting lens, at least somewhat. Some conditioning is more distorting, some less, less efficient, more efficient.

So after SR the distortions still exist, that's pretty obvious to me. The now-non-person still functions through the former conditioning. The SR now-non-person will even argue that it's not necessary for the conditioning to be altered in any way, that's the argument against purification.

See my dilemma? If SR is seeing the truth as truth and the false as false, why doesn't distorting conditioning drop away? If you say it doesn't matter or there is no distortion post SR, I say you have a blind spot. Objectivity doesn't exist post SR. All this is why I maintain that purification is necessary. If your paradigm doesn't account for all this, it deficient. I somewhat spoke to all this yesterday in reply. I suppose this is where 3 months has left me, to sum up.

Hey fella, good to see you.

I'd say that SR changes our 'way' of experiencing. It changes the direction we instinctively gravitate towards. After SR, we instinctively gravitate inwards. I don't believe it necessarily clears all 'distortion' (to use your word). It changes our experience of the distortion, and our way of handling it. Some will purify, some won't (maybe boils down to individual 'soul path' or something like that).

[Reefs]

May 3, 2024 5:38:00 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

May 2, 2024 22:25:16 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Your dilemma is that you have no actual reference for what you are talking about about. It's all based on conjecture and projection. Firstly, SR is not about what is seen, but how it is seen. Secondly, in the SR context, 'seeing' does not refer to the outer senses nor the inner senses, but a perspective prior to all that. Thirdly, SR is nothing newly acquired, just the re-cognition of what-is-so, of what has always been so. This is why SR is acausal and instantaneous and why the SVP has no role to play in SR. So the idea of purification is built on a number of flawed premises. It is assumed that SR is something newly acquired, that you (the SVP or body-mind) don't have yet, and that this can only happen when the outer and/or inner senses are clear. And so the conclusion is that the road to SR is a process that involves a gradual clearing and cleansing of the SVP and/or body-mind. Now, how's that been working out so far for you? I'd say it has been an abysmal failure. As it has been for all the other purifiers, too. And that is necessarily so. Because if you follow the purification road, you basically run after the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, it's always right around the corner, always almost within reach, but never here and now, in your pocket. But SR is always here and now, it's the diamond in your pocket. See your dilemma? You think you are a brick that needs polishing. But you are not a brick. And so the question about polishing that brick or not is misconceived. Like suffering, polishing bricks is optional, not mandatory.

None of that addresses my post whatsoever.

SDP: So my question is this: How do you make orange juice from potatoes? And don’t tell me you cannot make orange juice from potatoes, because if you say that potatoes and orange juice are unrelated, you have a blind spot. That’s why I stress the importance of washing your potatoes thoroughly and upgrading your juicer to a heavy duty juicer. Because heavy duty juicer and clean potatoes equals delicious orange juice.

R: What the heck are you talking about? You can’t make orange juice from potatoes! You need oranges to make orange juice. So forget your potatoes. Get oranges instead. And any old juicer will do. No upgrade necessary.

SDP: That doesn’t address my question, like at all.

R: 

[laughter]

May 3, 2024 6:11:56 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

May 3, 2024 0:06:20 GMT -5 laughter said:

Some of the conditioning can and will drop away naturally, but even before SR the nature of conditioning can be seen, quite clearly for what it is. For as long as you're drawing breath, there will be these expressions of conditions and conditioning. SR adds a new dimension onto this insight. Put more precisely, SR is a subtraction, a realization of an absence. The additional dimension to the insight about conditioning can follow from a later informing of mind.

The parable of the coin is deceptively deep water, similar to finger/moon and "beginner's mind". One way to approach this, as long as the thinking/emoting mind is left out of the approach, is to consider Billy Shakes: "there is no good nor bad but that thinking makes it so." This isn't to deny good, bad, evil or virtue, but simply to contextualize them. It does not accept evil, it suggests the possibility of clarity on the topic.

Unfortunately, judgmental ideas about good or bad conditioning are a recursive black hole, and it is at the event horizon of that black hole where you will find your blind spot. The simplest, and for some folks, the hardest pointer to the truth to accept is that the judgments are only ever a creation of mind, just like names and all other boundaries.

As for purification, it will happen if it happens, and this can be either prior-to or after SR. In my opinion, the suggestion to purify can be a wonderful invitation, or, it might just be needless negative judgment. Depends on where it's coming from.

Only slightly addresses my concerns, but not in any way that helps (answer my concerns). Conditioning distorts the capacity to observe what is so, events in the world. I should think and should hope that SR would eliminate all distorting factors, to allow one to see aright. The conditioning of which the self consists, is still there post SR (the conditioning exists, a self doesn't exist, is imaginary). The distorting factors still exist within the organism, the programming. ...Some exist head and shoulders above all others, a Buddha, a Lao Tzu, a Chuang Tzu even, a Jesus, I will even buy a Ramana or a Niz, a Dogen, especially Bankei, a Yasutani. Why is this so? What *good* is SR if the distorting factors still exist within the organism? Why doesn't SR eradicate suggestibility?

ZD has mentioned "holy buddhahood" before, but all I know about that is from reading along with what he's written on the topic. Your question is only tangentially related to what you're imagining as "SR". It presupposes some absolute "undistorted" set of conditioning, which is the oxymoron of relative perfection. The monks that destroy those intricate sand paintings as soon as they are complete are demonstrating that to you.

[zendancer]

May 2, 2024 17:54:38 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

The eye isn't a camera. The optic nerve attaches at the back of the eye, so there are no rods or cones there, so nothing there to perceive light. If the eye were a camera we would have a hole in the center of our vision. We don't, the mind/brain patches over the hole so that we see a uniform view of the world, no breaks, no hole. So the mind/brain creates an illusion of wholeness.

Here is my question. Before SR there is a seeming self which operates in the world, makes choices, acts. I think we are on the same page that the so-called self is a result of conditioning. So, SR is the recognition, realization, that there is no self, no separate self, no volitional self (on this I agree, always have, concerning the small s self, yesterday called the self-avatar). But yet the conditioning continues to operate in the world. It appears there is a self operating, someone, an ordinary person looking from the outside would see a self operating in the world. Before SR the illusory self operating in the world doesn't operate without error, or always according to truth or actuality. The very nature of the illusory self is to be a distorting factor, a distorting lens, at least somewhat. Some conditioning is more distorting, some less, less efficient, more efficient.

So after SR the distortions still exist, that's pretty obvious to me. The now-non-person still functions through the former conditioning. The SR now-non-person will even argue that it's not necessary for the conditioning to be altered in any way, that's the argument against purification.

See my dilemma? If SR is seeing the truth as truth and the false as false, why doesn't distorting conditioning drop away? If you say it doesn't matter or there is no distortion post SR, I say you have a blind spot. Objectivity doesn't exist post SR. All this is why I maintain that purification is necessary. If your paradigm doesn't account for all this, it deficient. I somewhat spoke to all this yesterday in reply. I suppose this is where 3 months has left me, to sum up.

Yes, the eye is like a camera except for the hole you mention, and the brain is conditioned to fill in the hole. That's a minor issue, and does not address the big issue--that people are conditioned to imagine what they see are separate things being observed by a separate thing. If the intellect is quiescent, then the eye sees "what is" rather than ideas ABOUT "what is."

In essence, most adults live in their heads and believe what John Troy calls "the narrator"--the mind chatter that reinforces the illusion of separateness. Yes, people are conditioned to imagine separateness. Fortunately, it's possible to wake up from this illusion and realize that Reality is a unified infinite whole. Activities that are highly correlated with this insight include meditation, spending time alone in nature, etc. In essence, 95% of all meditative activities involve shifting attention away from thoughts to direct sensory perception, and if one stays focused upon what's happening NOW rather than thoughts about the past, future, or self-referential ideation, the intellect can become quite silent. The more silent the intellect becomes, the more likely that the illusion of separateness will collapse.

Essentially, the path to SR is reversing the habits that created the illusion of separateness, and the path is much like returning to the same state of mind as a little child. One becomes child-like but retains full intellectual adult capabilities.

What you see is what you are because the see-er and the seen are one and the same, but what you imagine is like a thought-fog that obscures the obvious.

You wrote than "an ordinary person looking from the outside would see a self operating in the world." This is false. It is impossible for anyone to see a self operating in the world because selfhood is imaginary. An ordinary person looking from the outside would see "what is," which is beyond name and form. An ordinary person might imagine that they are seeing "a human" or a "self" but both ideas are ideas, only. The absolute truth is obvious, and even little children see it, but adults fail to see it because they spend most of their time imagining and entertaining thoughts that reinforce their imaginary ideas.

Yes, "the very nature of an illusory self is a distorting factor" because it distorts the true nature of what's going on.

Little children do not think about the future or the past and they do not ask crazy questions, such as, "Am I happy?" This is because they have not yet imagined themselves as separate from the rest of Reality. The original sin, if we want to imagine one, is imagining separation where there is no such thing.

Yes, after SR there is still conditioning, both long-term and short term, but the conditioning that leads one to imagine separateness is gone! I've told the story about ducking under a ham hanging from a garage door opener rail. After the ham was removed, the body continued to duck under a non-existent ham for a week or so because it was conditioned to respond like that to avoid a head impact. It became re-conditioned NOT to duck after 8 or 10 days because the body/mind organism learned that it didn't need to do that. This kind of conditioning and re-conditioning is unimportant compared to the conditioning that creates what Charles Tart called "the concensus trance state," and what G and other sages have called "sleep-walking through life" or robotic behaviors based on thoughts about separation that are believed to be true.

What is the difference between someone living in the matrix (the trance state of believing in separation) and someone who has escaped the matrix? The escapee has realized how mind functions to create cognitive illusions, has seen through the illusions, and has become focused on what is actually happening in the present moment rather than thoughts ABOUT what's happening. An escapee, because of having seen how thoughts obscure the obvious, becomes a person of action and does not waste time fantasizing about hypothetical futures, regretting past actions, imagining what other people should be doing, imagining what the body/mind organism should be doing, worrying about anything, and accepts Reality just as it is. The state of mind of an escapee cannot be imagined; it can only be lived.

No purification of any kind is necessary for discovering the truth unless by "purification" one means shifting attention to "what is" again and again until the obvious becomes obvious.

[zendancer]

May 3, 2024 10:50:52 GMT -5 laughter said:

May 3, 2024 6:11:56 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Only slightly addresses my concerns, but not in any way that helps (answer my concerns). Conditioning distorts the capacity to observe what is so, events in the world. I should think and should hope that SR would eliminate all distorting factors, to allow one to see aright. The conditioning of which the self consists, is still there post SR (the conditioning exists, a self doesn't exist, is imaginary). The distorting factors still exist within the organism, the programming. ...Some exist head and shoulders above all others, a Buddha, a Lao Tzu, a Chuang Tzu even, a Jesus, I will even buy a Ramana or a Niz, a Dogen, especially Bankei, a Yasutani. Why is this so? What *good* is SR if the distorting factors still exist within the organism? Why doesn't SR eradicate suggestibility?

ZD has mentioned "holy buddhahood" before, but all I know about that is from reading along with what he's written on the topic. Your question is only tangentially related to what you're imagining as "SR". It presupposes some absolute "undistorted" set of conditioning, which is the oxymoron of relative perfection. The monks that destroy those intricate sand paintings as soon as they are complete are demonstrating that to you.

Exactly! Holy Buddhahood is a step beyond SR/freedom from the matrix, so there's no point in discussing that rarified issue here, but the idea of an "undistorted" set of conditioning or freedom from conditioning is just another erroneous idea. If a jet pilot attains SR, s/he will still automatically and spontaneously respond to an emergency because the body/mind organism has been conditioned via simulators and training to respond faster than thought. This kind of conditioning will obviously continue after SR, but the SR pilot will NOT imagine that s/he is a separate volitional entity in control of what's happening. That thought structure will have collapsed.

ITSW, as pointed out many times here, if the intellect becomes totally silent, the body/mind organism will continue to function intelligently because what we are is incomprehensibly intelligent. The intellect is like a miniscule graphics generator/calculator riding along in the pre-frontal cortex whereas the vast intelligence of THIS is running the whole show (keeping the body's temperature stable, regulating hormone levels, circulating blood, walking, talking, dreaming, thinking, samadhiing, etc) as well as running the intellect.

[stardustpilgrim]

May 2, 2024 22:25:16 GMT -5 Reefs said:

May 2, 2024 17:54:38 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

The eye isn't a camera. The optic nerve attaches at the back of the eye, so there are no rods or cones there, so nothing there to perceive light. If the eye were a camera we would have a hole in the center of our vision. We don't, the mind/brain patches over the hole so that we see a uniform view of the world, no breaks, no hole. So the mind/brain creates an illusion of wholeness.

Here is my question. Before SR there is a seeming self which operates in the world, makes choices, acts. I think we are on the same page that the so-called self is a result of conditioning. So, SR is the recognition, realization, that there is no self, no separate self, no volitional self (on this I agree, always have, concerning the small s self, yesterday called the self-avatar). But yet the conditioning continues to operate in the world. It appears there is a self operating, someone, an ordinary person looking from the outside would see a self operating in the world. Before SR the illusory self operating in the world doesn't operate without error, or always according to truth or actuality. The very nature of the illusory self is to be a distorting factor, a distorting lens, at least somewhat. Some conditioning is more distorting, some less, less efficient, more efficient.

So after SR the distortions still exist, that's pretty obvious to me. The now-non-person still functions through the former conditioning. The SR now-non-person will even argue that it's not necessary for the conditioning to be altered in any way, that's the argument against purification.

See my dilemma? If SR is seeing the truth as truth and the false as false, why doesn't distorting conditioning drop away? If you say it doesn't matter or there is no distortion post SR, I say you have a blind spot. Objectivity doesn't exist post SR. All this is why I maintain that purification is necessary. If your paradigm doesn't account for all this, it deficient. I somewhat spoke to all this yesterday in reply. I suppose this is where 3 months has left me, to sum up.

Your dilemma is that you have no actual reference for what you are talking about about. It's all based on conjecture and projection. Firstly, SR is not about what is seen, but how it is seen. Secondly, in the SR context, 'seeing' does not refer to the outer senses nor the inner senses, but a perspective prior to all that. Thirdly, SR is nothing newly acquired, just the re-cognition of what-is-so, of what has always been so. This is why SR is acausal and instantaneous and why the SVP has no role to play in SR. So the idea of purification is built on a number of flawed premises. It is assumed that SR is something newly acquired, that you (the SVP or body-mind) don't have yet, and that this can only happen when the outer and/or inner senses are clear. And so the conclusion is that the road to SR is a process that involves a gradual clearing and cleansing of the SVP and/or body-mind. Now, how's that been working out so far for you? I'd say it has been an abysmal failure. As it has been for all the other purifiers, too. And that is necessarily so. Because if you follow the purification road, you basically run after the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, it's always right around the corner, always almost within reach, but never here and now, in your pocket. But SR is always here and now, it's the diamond in your pocket. See your dilemma? You think you are a brick that needs polishing. But you are not a brick. And so the question about polishing that brick or not is misconceived. Like suffering, polishing bricks is optional, not mandatory.

I read all of the replies, thanks. My post could presuppose I know nothing about SR, the questions remain. That's why I said your reply (above) does not address my questions. ...."I'll be baak"...

[Reefs]

May 3, 2024 14:26:02 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

May 2, 2024 22:25:16 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Your dilemma is that you have no actual reference for what you are talking about about. It's all based on conjecture and projection. Firstly, SR is not about what is seen, but how it is seen. Secondly, in the SR context, 'seeing' does not refer to the outer senses nor the inner senses, but a perspective prior to all that. Thirdly, SR is nothing newly acquired, just the re-cognition of what-is-so, of what has always been so. This is why SR is acausal and instantaneous and why the SVP has no role to play in SR. So the idea of purification is built on a number of flawed premises. It is assumed that SR is something newly acquired, that you (the SVP or body-mind) don't have yet, and that this can only happen when the outer and/or inner senses are clear. And so the conclusion is that the road to SR is a process that involves a gradual clearing and cleansing of the SVP and/or body-mind. Now, how's that been working out so far for you? I'd say it has been an abysmal failure. As it has been for all the other purifiers, too. And that is necessarily so. Because if you follow the purification road, you basically run after the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, it's always right around the corner, always almost within reach, but never here and now, in your pocket. But SR is always here and now, it's the diamond in your pocket. See your dilemma? You think you are a brick that needs polishing. But you are not a brick. And so the question about polishing that brick or not is misconceived. Like suffering, polishing bricks is optional, not mandatory.

I read all of the replies, thanks. My post could presuppose I know nothing about SR, the questions remain. That's why I said your reply (above) does not address my questions. ...."I'll be baak"...

I don't blame you. Most people here still are or have been there, too. It's the "unknown unknowns" dilemma. There's no pre-SR solution to this. Pre-SR, you have no choice but see everything thru the self-improvement lens, even if you don't want to. It's a hardware problem so to speak. No amount of software upgrades is going to help you here. That's our dilemma in these talks.

[zendancer]

May 4, 2024 7:11:22 GMT -5 Reefs said:

May 3, 2024 14:26:02 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

I read all of the replies, thanks. My post could presuppose I know nothing about SR, the questions remain. That's why I said your reply (above) does not address my questions. ...."I'll be baak"...

I don't blame you. Most people here still are or have been there, too. It's the "unknown unknowns" dilemma. There's no pre-SR solution to this. Pre-SR, you have no choice but see everything thru the self-improvement lens, even if you don't want to. It's a hardware problem so to speak. No amount of software upgrades is going to help you here. That's our dilemma in these talks.

Yes, all that one can do if one wants to find the truth are those things most highly correlated with existential discoveries. Letting go of attachment to one's ideas is a big help and thereby adopting a "beginner's mind" (an open mind)--something quite difficult for long-time seekers who have all kinds of entrenched ideas about what is necessary. Other activities that are highly correlated include:

1. Meditation (shifting attention away from habitual thoughts that reinforce a dualistic and self-referential POV)
2. Spending time alone while contemplating existential questions
3. Walking in nature
4. Self enquiry
5. Face to face interactions with people who have discovered what's going on, who are willing to give honest feedback, and who want nothing from anyone
6. Reading spiritual literature
7. Watching YouTube video talks given by well-respected sages
8. Keeping attention focused on whatever is happening NOW

[Deleted]

May 2, 2024 17:54:38 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

The eye isn't a camera. The optic nerve attaches at the back of the eye, so there are no rods or cones there, so nothing there to perceive light. If the eye were a camera we would have a hole in the center of our vision. We don't, the mind/brain patches over the hole so that we see a uniform view of the world, no breaks, no hole. So the mind/brain creates an illusion of wholeness.

Here is my question. Before SR there is a seeming self which operates in the world, makes choices, acts. I think we are on the same page that the so-called self is a result of conditioning. So, SR is the recognition, realization, that there is no self, no separate self, no volitional self (on this I agree, always have, concerning the small s self, yesterday called the self-avatar). But yet the conditioning continues to operate in the world. It appears there is a self operating, someone, an ordinary person looking from the outside would see a self operating in the world. Before SR the illusory self operating in the world doesn't operate without error, or always according to truth or actuality. The very nature of the illusory self is to be a distorting factor, a distorting lens, at least somewhat. Some conditioning is more distorting, some less, less efficient, more efficient.

So after SR the distortions still exist, that's pretty obvious to me. The now-non-person still functions through the former conditioning. The SR now-non-person will even argue that it's not necessary for the conditioning to be altered in any way, that's the argument against purification.

See my dilemma? If SR is seeing the truth as truth and the false as false, why doesn't distorting conditioning drop away? If you say it doesn't matter or there is no distortion post SR, I say you have a blind spot. Objectivity doesn't exist post SR. All this is why I maintain that purification is necessary. If your paradigm doesn't account for all this, it deficient. I somewhat spoke to all this yesterday in reply. I suppose this is where 3 months has left me, to sum up.

If there is a deep realization, then it probably, usually, does help the person see and think more clearly, because the identification with ego leads to various distorting psychological patterns and energy drains - fear, pride, drama, and on and on. However, the human intellect is very small and limited, and spiritual realizations do not turn people into intellectual super-humans.

Another factor is that terms like "Self Realization" are now widespread, and they are therefore watered down and used for lesser experiences or ulterior motives. This is simply the way of the world. 2000 years ago, Jesus probably taught 10-15 people in a very genuine way, and now we have TV preachers collecting money for their private jets, and millions of people who don't separate religion and politics. Now we have people who think "Self Realization" sounds cool on their spiritual resume.

[sharon]

May 4, 2024 10:18:33 GMT -5 zendancer said:

May 4, 2024 7:11:22 GMT -5 Reefs said:

I don't blame you. Most people here still are or have been there, too. It's the "unknown unknowns" dilemma. There's no pre-SR solution to this. Pre-SR, you have no choice but see everything thru the self-improvement lens, even if you don't want to. It's a hardware problem so to speak. No amount of software upgrades is going to help you here. That's our dilemma in these talks.

Yes, all that one can do if one wants to find the truth are those things most highly correlated with existential discoveries. Letting go of attachment to one's ideas is a big help and thereby adopting a "beginner's mind" (an open mind)--something quite difficult for long-time seekers who have all kinds of entrenched ideas about what is necessary. Other activities that are highly correlated include:

1. Meditation (shifting attention away from habitual thoughts that reinforce a dualistic and self-referential POV)
2. Spending time alone while contemplating existential questions
3. Walking in nature
4. Self enquiry
5. Face to face interactions with people who have discovered what's going on, who are willing to give honest feedback, and who want nothing from anyone
6. Reading spiritual literature
7. Watching YouTube video talks given by well-respected sages
8. Keeping attention focused on whatever is happening NOW

In my experience the bolded are the most beneficial ways to identify any 'distorting thoughts' and with that comes the ability to sever the emotional connection to them. No one really wants to stay crippled by them and the cut does not have to keep being made.