To practice or not to practice (Shunyamurti)

[Reefs]

Apr 22, 2024 9:44:40 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Apr 21, 2024 23:48:39 GMT -5 Reefs said:

TBH, I’ve never heard of Shunyamurti before. Some of his videos just popped up one day in the suggestion column on youtube, so I watched a couple of those and found them to be exceptionally clear. And so I posted one video.

Then ZD mentioned those rumors. I looked it up and there seem to be some folks dedicated to badmouthing Shunyamurti, they set up a website especially for that purpose. And you know what that reminds me of? Gab!

Spiritual communities are tricky business. They attract of lot of needy, confused and also egomaniacal people, with lots of interpersonal dynamics.

Consider this: imagine a newbie coming to ST and reading a couple of posts by ZD (or yours truly) and finding them to be of exceptional clarity, and thinking “Wow, awesome. Such clarity! I like that guy.” And then that newbie goes to gab and starts reading what’s written there about ZD (or yours truly). And not knowing anything about ST’s history, he’s probably going to think “Woah, I had no idea that guy was such a fraud and bully! Apparently he randomly bans members as soon as they dare to disagree with him, threatening his oversized but fragile spiritual ego! He seems to be running his own personal cult on that forum, like a dictator, having all opposition silenced or banned, surrounded by yes-men, who don’t have the balls to point out this blatant abuse of power... very much like society these days!”

Now, what is fact and what is fiction here? How could the newbie ever tell without knowing the whole story, first hand?
I think we are in a very similar situation with Shunyamurti and many other gurus who have been accused of questionable behavior, like Osho, Sadhguru, Mooji etc. Those allegations could be all true, or not. It could all be true and then it would be a bad case of supersized spiritual ego gone wild. Or it could be someone envying their popularity and success, one of their direct competitors in the spiritual circus, just trying to get some of their market share. Or it could be a former disgruntled follower of them, who had been rejected for whatever reason and his/her ego bruised and is now trying to get even from afar.

The pointers are crystal clear though. And that’s why I posted the video and why we are still discussing these other gurus.

So, while on the one hand, if the walk doesn’t match the talk is an indicator that clarity isn’t really that crystal, we can’t verify the walk of these people first hand, only based on hearsay, and so have to stick to the talk for the time being and take what we hear about the walk with several grains of salt.

But as far as I can tell, having watched only a couple of videos, Shunyamurti’s talk is exceptionally clear and also very elegant, one of the best you can find these days.

I agree, and without knowing firsthand what went down, it's impossible to know what's going on and whether S walks the talk or not. Rick Archer has run into the same thing. He posted one video of a guy who had what appeared to be a genuinely huge realization. The guy attracted a lot of followers, but subsequently many followers fell away and began describing actions that made everything far more problematic. Apparently there was an addiction and the guy borrowed lots of money from his followers that he didn't pay back. Rick took down his interview, and the guy posted a rebuttal explaining his side of the story. I read the claims from both sides of the aisle and concluded that the guy had some serious problems. For that reason I quit recommending that people listen to the guy. Rick told me that this has happened about 25 times which is not bad considering he's done 800 interviews.

It does, however, bring up the issue of what it means to walk the talk. S is very clear concerning ND, but if the allegations are true, what does that imply? To me it implies that a human can discover the non-dual nature of reality but still have some deep--seated personality issues/flaws that would NOT make them good in-person teachers. It would be safer for a newbie to listen to the satsangs, but not get involved personally with the teacher. I suspect that this is more of a problem with independent teachers than ones who teach in traditional structures among people who have equal insight. Even then, there's no certainty because there are several well-known Tibetan figures of some renown whose high-ranking cohorts hid their bad behavior for years.

It appears that there can be enlightened insight by both mature psychologically well-adjusted people and enlightened insight by immature psychologically-screwed up people. Perhaps this is why some Zen Masters distinguish between enlightenment and "Holy Buddhahood." Thoughts?

Well, people are people. We should always keep that in mind. And I think many people, both followers and teachers, underestimate the power of social dynamics. Newbies are usually very needy people, they often look specifically for a personal connection with someone they can totally and blindly trust, like a father figure that they never had or had lost along the path. So the advice to just listen to the message and not hang around with the teacher would go against that very strong need or desire that is plaguing them. So there are usually huge expectations on the follower side that become huge projections onto the teacher. And you have to be a really strong and stable being to not get sucked into these dynamics, especially when you have hundreds or thousands of followers, including VIPs hanging on your lips. And it seems to me that that most gurus can't actually resist that pull at some point, in the end even the most well-meaning gurus get sucked into these personal dynamics. Especially fame seems to get them all in the end. See Sadhguru as latest example.

I've watched a bunch of videos recently about cults, how cults work and so on. And whenever you have someone needy and someone who seems to have the answers to all your problems, there's the potential for abuse. The common pattern I've noticed from these stories, whether it is religious, political or corporate cults, is that the people who enter these cults are usually in a state of great confusion at the beginning. The cult gives their life a structure again and a sense of direction and purpose. But the cult also always tries to break down and erase their individuality via numerous methods, for the sake of the mission, the greater good or even just for the sake of reaching a higher state of being or enlightenment. So in cults, the individual identity is slowly and very methodically (!) replaced by a group identity, so that in the end, the cult members totally ignore their inner guidance. Their inner guidance is replaced by the direction of the cult leader. There is also always a strong us vs. them attitude, so that it is impossible to reason with those cult members, they will actually go to great lengths to defend their abusive situation.

So here you can see that non-duality groups can rather easily turn into a cult, because right from the start, ego and individuality are seen as the root of all evil and the scriptures all seem to confirm that as well. So it has the stamp of authority. And especially in the East, the disciple-guru relationship is one of total obedience to the guru. So it's not a far stretch of the imagination that someone very knowledgeable and charismatic and maybe with a strong desire to help and uplift humanity but also with a strong narcissistic streak might unconsciously or even consciously exploit that kind of traditional set up.

As a seeker, I always found this traditional setup questionable. And even now, I still find it a bit strange when Westerners feel the need to take on Eastern names and put on foreign attire to teach. To me that indicates that they are dressed up for the spiritual circus, i.e. dog and pony show. However, most seekers expect a minimum of dog and pony show, so this may often just be a demand and supply issue, which these teachers willingly or begrudgingly accept.

But my main point is this, in the satsang scene, especially with the traditional satsang setup, a structure that can potentially turn abusive is baked into the system. And both followers and teachers can, and often do, unknowingly get sucked into such dynamics, despite best intentions.

Consider this: if you help someone at a critical point in their life when they were about to crash and burn and they are able to turn everything around again because they met you, and by interacting with you, either talking to you are just hanging around with you, they have a profound shift, they will usually be grateful to you for the rest of their lives and attribute their new found luck to you. Now imagine that not only happening once but many times, maybe even regularly. I don't think its a far stretch to imagine that for some counselors or gurus, that may have an inflating effect on their self-image, and there you have all the ingredients for a cult again. 

What I've also learned from these documentaries is that a cult is not necessarily some extremely weird belief system around an eccentric cult leader with gullible followers. Some families or companies are actually run like a cult, or political parties. So this is actually a much more common occurrence than most people might think. So that's the psychological and sociological perspective.

Another, traditional perspective would be seeing it thru the lens of karma theory. According to karma theory, enlightenment means that no new karma is created but that the enlightened one still has to deal with past karma that will come due at some point until that karma is exhausted.

It's similar to when you change your diet or do a detox or a water fast. The day you stop eating, you basically stop adding anything to your body in terms of substances, and so in that sense you are clean. However, there's still a lot in your body from your past bad habits of eating that your body still has to process and to eliminate. So in that sense, you are far from clean. It takes for example several days until your bowels are actually empty. And then there's a lot of other substances and toxins that are store in tissue all over your body that the body will slowly have to deal with. So this can be a very long process, depending on your individual body type, history and current situation. You can't really predict what's going to happen. Some people may actually go thru extreme detox experiences and sometimes get hospitalized, some others just have a bit of of low energy and spend more time in the bathroom than usual for a while and that's it.

So, similarly, the post-SR informing of mind and integration process is equally unpredictable. So there are a lot of unknowns. But what we usually associate with Buddhas and Bodhisattvas is when that integration process has been completed.

Very complex but fascinating topic.

[lolly]

I think everything is practice all the time.

[laughter]

Apr 22, 2024 22:30:43 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Apr 22, 2024 9:44:40 GMT -5 zendancer said:

I agree, and without knowing firsthand what went down, it's impossible to know what's going on and whether S walks the talk or not. Rick Archer has run into the same thing. He posted one video of a guy who had what appeared to be a genuinely huge realization. The guy attracted a lot of followers, but subsequently many followers fell away and began describing actions that made everything far more problematic. Apparently there was an addiction and the guy borrowed lots of money from his followers that he didn't pay back. Rick took down his interview, and the guy posted a rebuttal explaining his side of the story. I read the claims from both sides of the aisle and concluded that the guy had some serious problems. For that reason I quit recommending that people listen to the guy. Rick told me that this has happened about 25 times which is not bad considering he's done 800 interviews.

It does, however, bring up the issue of what it means to walk the talk. S is very clear concerning ND, but if the allegations are true, what does that imply? To me it implies that a human can discover the non-dual nature of reality but still have some deep--seated personality issues/flaws that would NOT make them good in-person teachers. It would be safer for a newbie to listen to the satsangs, but not get involved personally with the teacher. I suspect that this is more of a problem with independent teachers than ones who teach in traditional structures among people who have equal insight. Even then, there's no certainty because there are several well-known Tibetan figures of some renown whose high-ranking cohorts hid their bad behavior for years.

It appears that there can be enlightened insight by both mature psychologically well-adjusted people and enlightened insight by immature psychologically-screwed up people. Perhaps this is why some Zen Masters distinguish between enlightenment and "Holy Buddhahood." Thoughts?

Well, people are people. We should always keep that in mind. And I think many people, both followers and teachers, underestimate the power of social dynamics. Newbies are usually very needy people, they often look specifically for a personal connection with someone they can totally and blindly trust, like a father figure that they never had or had lost along the path. So the advice to just listen to the message and not hang around with the teacher would go against that very strong need or desire that is plaguing them. So there are usually huge expectations on the follower side that become huge projections onto the teacher. And you have to be a really strong and stable being to not get sucked into these dynamics, especially when you have hundreds or thousands of followers, including VIPs hanging on your lips. And it seems to me that that most gurus can't actually resist that pull at some point, in the end even the most well-meaning gurus get sucked into these personal dynamics. Especially fame seems to get them all in the end. See Sadhguru as latest example.

I've watched a bunch of videos recently about cults, how cults work and so on. And whenever you have someone needy and someone who seems to have the answers to all your problems, there's the potential for abuse. The common pattern I've noticed from these stories, whether it is religious, political or corporate cults, is that the people who enter these cults are usually in a state of great confusion at the beginning. The cult gives their life a structure again and a sense of direction and purpose. But the cult also always tries to break down and erase their individuality via numerous methods, for the sake of the mission, the greater good or even just for the sake of reaching a higher state of being or enlightenment. So in cults, the individual identity is slowly and very methodically (!) replaced by a group identity, so that in the end, the cult members totally ignore their inner guidance. Their inner guidance is replaced by the direction of the cult leader. There is also always a strong us vs. them attitude, so that it is impossible to reason with those cult members, they will actually go to great lengths to defend their abusive situation.

So here you can see that non-duality groups can rather easily turn into a cult, because right from the start, ego and individuality are seen as the root of all evil and the scriptures all seem to confirm that as well. So it has the stamp of authority. And especially in the East, the disciple-guru relationship is one of total obedience to the guru. So it's not a far stretch of the imagination that someone very knowledgeable and charismatic and maybe with a strong desire to help and uplift humanity but also with a strong narcissistic streak might unconsciously or even consciously exploit that kind of traditional set up.

As a seeker, I always found this traditional setup questionable. And even now, I still find it a bit strange when Westerners feel the need to take on Eastern names and put on foreign attire to teach. To me that indicates that they are dressed up for the spiritual circus, i.e. dog and pony show. However, most seekers expect a minimum of dog and pony show, so this may often just be a demand and supply issue, which these teachers willingly or begrudgingly accept.

But my main point is this, in the satsang scene, especially with the traditional satsang setup, a structure that can potentially turn abusive is baked into the system. And both followers and teachers can, and often do, unknowingly get sucked into such dynamics, despite best intentions.

Consider this: if you help someone at a critical point in their life when they were about to crash and burn and they are able to turn everything around again because they met you, and by interacting with you, either talking to you are just hanging around with you, they have a profound shift, they will usually be grateful to you for the rest of their lives and attribute their new found luck to you. Now imagine that not only happening once but many times, maybe even regularly. I don't think its a far stretch to imagine that for some counselors or gurus, that may have an inflating effect on their self-image, and there you have all the ingredients for a cult again. 

What I've also learned from these documentaries is that a cult is not necessarily some extremely weird belief system around an eccentric cult leader with gullible followers. Some families or companies are actually run like a cult, or political parties. So this is actually a much more common occurrence than most people might think. So that's the psychological and sociological perspective.

Another, traditional perspective would be seeing it thru the lens of karma theory. According to karma theory, enlightenment means that no new karma is created but that the enlightened one still has to deal with past karma that will come due at some point until that karma is exhausted.

It's similar to when you change your diet or do a detox or a water fast. The day you stop eating, you basically stop adding anything to your body in terms of substances, and so in that sense you are clean. However, there's still a lot in your body from your past bad habits of eating that your body still has to process and to eliminate. So in that sense, you are far from clean. It takes for example several days until your bowels are actually empty. And then there's a lot of other substances and toxins that are store in tissue all over your body that the body will slowly have to deal with. So this can be a very long process, depending on your individual body type, history and current situation. You can't really predict what's going to happen. Some people may actually go thru extreme detox experiences and sometimes get hospitalized, some others just have a bit of of low energy and spend more time in the bathroom than usual for a while and that's it.

So, similarly, the post-SR informing of mind and integration process is equally unpredictable. So there are a lot of unknowns. But what we usually associate with Buddhas and Bodhisattvas is when that integration process has been completed.

Very complex but fascinating topic.

Never having been involved all that heavily in a spiritual community, I can only offer 2nd-hand observations and abstraction. "Culture", has "cult" at it's root, so, most generally, we're referring to how a group of people relate, and what they say, do, create and consume, both internally to the group, and externally with people not a part of the group.

The group leader serves as a nexus of connections radiating both internally and externally. As the Christians say, "by their fruits ye shall know them", and, on a personal level, you can get a feel for someone's state of being, even from watching them in a video, or reading their dialogs with other people. You went to the apartment over the smoke shop, so, even though it was (well and long) after the fact, you can get a feel for these things, from the outside looking in.

I find it interesting here to compare Shunya' with Cohen, Mooji, Tolle, Adya' and Spira. One thing that jumps out is how if you're successful enough, like Tolle, you can just keep your distance from the seekers. He probably pays the people who maintain his life and businesses pretty well. But even then, in the absence of any serious allegations of abuse, people who've never met him will complain about the wealth he generated. On the other end of the spectrum you have Mooji and Shunya', and I guess the story goes that they allow or maybe even solicit contribution in money and kind from would-be disciples. That just is what it is, as per the Buddha, the world is on fire. I go to pray at a Catholic church, I feel I should feed the plate. I mean, hell, I pay for theater tickets, right? Clearly the potential for abuse is there, and if you consider guys like ZD who spend time with and on seekers gratis, that seems to me a sort of optimal situation, but the source of the wisdom has to be at a material equilibrium in their own lives, and I think guys like ZD are probably quite rare, all things considered. Did Niz ever take money from people?

The "one of these things is not like the other" in this group, to my eye, from watching vids and reading, is Cohen. The stories of Mooji strike me as explainable by my guess that he's not a control freak and just lets the admin play out as it does and run by others. Worst I heard is he leered at a young girl and some of his students will do construction and other manual labor on his .. "compound"? Shunya' told someone to get a divorce? Well, maybe the person they were married to was a demon! But, it's all just speculation and gossip for me. I wasn't there. Adya' and Spira represent examples where there's a material ask, but I'm not aware of any claims of abuse, and one of them went the route of adopting an Eastern name, but that can be attributed to his path. Speaking of which, of course .. there's this, I mean (fictional, but), right? Modern Westerners are SOFT! (.. "oh, poor little 'ole victimized .. me" ). But then again, crushing someone's new car? That's just wrong, man.

[tenka]

Apr 20, 2024 14:50:02 GMT -5 laughter said:

Apr 20, 2024 13:50:36 GMT -5 tenka said:

As many know I can't do long posts or videos, but watched a good 2 minutes lol.
I think some non dualist see the connection made with what you are with what you are as a bit of a red herring.
As this dude say's it a deeper level that isn't known on the surface.
It's similar to the unrealised and the realised even though there is only what you are.
So we have this point within self awareness that either reflects a deeper connection or realisation of what we are or not.
It's about getting to the point of this deeper connection or realisation.
As always said, if one is ripe there isn't much to do, if one isn't then there is plenty.

That's fine, butt, because we're dealing with the human mind there are always two sides to every coin. The existential truth is a birthright. It's not a reward for hard work or good behavior or wisdom that comes from life experience or a talent you can train to enhance or some special knowledge that can be learned. It's always and ever, here and now. Different people will advise different approaches based on their own past experiences and what they may have observed of others. The "ideal candidate" - so "ripeness" - will vary based on those approaches, so, that might vary quite wildly between perspectives. I'm always willing to give the benefit of the doubt - which comes in the form of an initial, unearned respect - to anyone who pipes up on the topic.

I would say there should be contemplation on why there is a type of amnesia in the first place. It's all well and saying that the existential truth is a birthright but was is it so elusive to the majority of folks.

If one starts to understand why it isn't attainable right here and now then it could open the door as to why things need to be in place to unlock or whatever word suits all that keeps one from it.

[laughter]

Apr 27, 2024 13:55:26 GMT -5 tenka said:

Apr 20, 2024 14:50:02 GMT -5 laughter said:

That's fine, butt, because we're dealing with the human mind there are always two sides to every coin. The existential truth is a birthright. It's not a reward for hard work or good behavior or wisdom that comes from life experience or a talent you can train to enhance or some special knowledge that can be learned. It's always and ever, here and now. Different people will advise different approaches based on their own past experiences and what they may have observed of others. The "ideal candidate" - so "ripeness" - will vary based on those approaches, so, that might vary quite wildly between perspectives. I'm always willing to give the benefit of the doubt - which comes in the form of an initial, unearned respect - to anyone who pipes up on the topic.

I would say there should be contemplation on why there is a type of amnesia in the first place. It's all well and saying that the existential truth is a birthright but was is it so elusive to the majority of folks.

If one starts to understand why it isn't attainable right here and now then it could open the door as to why things need to be in place to unlock or whatever word suits all that keeps one from it.

Well, the source of the amnesia is pretty well known and understood. That's the nature of the machine, you can draw up a blueprint for it. But people can study and understand that blueprint in fine detail, and yet, still live their lives out mechanistically. The machine is a distraction, and it seems to me that most people never become interested in the existential truth because their attention is distracted to elsewhere. The very notion that the truth has to be attained, and is not always here and now, is another distraction, and in some cases, the final distraction.

[tenka]

Apr 28, 2024 12:00:13 GMT -5 laughter said:

Apr 27, 2024 13:55:26 GMT -5 tenka said:

I would say there should be contemplation on why there is a type of amnesia in the first place. It's all well and saying that the existential truth is a birthright but was is it so elusive to the majority of folks.

If one starts to understand why it isn't attainable right here and now then it could open the door as to why things need to be in place to unlock or whatever word suits all that keeps one from it.

Well, the source of the amnesia is pretty well known and understood. That's the nature of the machine, you can draw up a blueprint for it. But people can study and understand that blueprint in fine detail, and yet, still live their lives out mechanistically. The machine is a distraction, and it seems to me that most people never become interested in the existential truth because their attention is distracted to elsewhere. The very notion that the truth has to be attained, and is not always here and now, is another distraction, and in some cases, the final distraction.

So why do you think that we are not remembering what we are that is forever present right here, right now?

In my opinion I don't think many have a Scooby-doo why they don't remember what they are.

You see in my eyes if a peep knows why they forget, then that will reflect what needs to be done in order to remember.

Peeps that say there is nothing to be done will have a different understanding to those that believe there is lots to do.

[zendancer]

Apr 28, 2024 13:42:19 GMT -5 tenka said:

Apr 28, 2024 12:00:13 GMT -5 laughter said:

Well, the source of the amnesia is pretty well known and understood. That's the nature of the machine, you can draw up a blueprint for it. But people can study and understand that blueprint in fine detail, and yet, still live their lives out mechanistically. The machine is a distraction, and it seems to me that most people never become interested in the existential truth because their attention is distracted to elsewhere. The very notion that the truth has to be attained, and is not always here and now, is another distraction, and in some cases, the final distraction.

So why do you think that we are not remembering what we are that is forever present right here, right now?

In my opinion I don't think many have a Scooby-doo why they don't remember what they are.

You see in my eyes if a peep knows why they forget, then that will reflect what needs to be done in order to remember.

Peeps that say there is nothing to be done will have a different understanding to those that believe there is lots to do.

[/b]

Even if we explain to people how they have been conditioned to imagine that the world is composed of separately-existing things being seen by a separately-existing volitional entity, very few will have any interest in discovering the reality that underlies the meta-reality. IOW, even if people are told that they live in the matrix, very few will have any interest in discovering how to escape from the matrix or discovering what lies beyond the matrix.

Those who have such an interest may be willing to take certain actions that might reveal what is always here and now, but whether they will ever be sufficiently motivated to take those actions, or pursue those actions persistently for a sustained period of time, is simply the result of how THIS may or may not unfold.

An interesting book regarding one aspect of this issue is "Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will," by Sapolsky.

[laughter]

Apr 28, 2024 13:42:19 GMT -5 tenka said:

Apr 28, 2024 12:00:13 GMT -5 laughter said:

Well, the source of the amnesia is pretty well known and understood. That's the nature of the machine, you can draw up a blueprint for it. But people can study and understand that blueprint in fine detail, and yet, still live their lives out mechanistically. The machine is a distraction, and it seems to me that most people never become interested in the existential truth because their attention is distracted to elsewhere. The very notion that the truth has to be attained, and is not always here and now, is another distraction, and in some cases, the final distraction.

So why do you think that we are not remembering what we are that is forever present right here, right now?

In my opinion I don't think many have a Scooby-doo why they don't remember what they are.

You see in my eyes if a peep knows why they forget, then that will reflect what needs to be done in order to remember.

Peeps that say there is nothing to be done will have a different understanding to those that believe there is lots to do.

Short answer is mistaken identity. I agree with your last two sentences. For as long as someone hasn't realized the existential truth, there are plenty of suggestions available about what to do in the meantime. But, in the biggest picture, to paraphrase ZD, it's all just THIS. THISING.

[stardustpilgrim]

I will look a the OP video later, here's my take. We don't merely consist of the self-avatar (the ordinary conditioned self). There is (obviously) a Ground, Source, Consciousness. Most people (not most people here) operate from thoughts, feelings/emotions and body-actions, that's what they take themselves to be. Correct spiritual practice is about touching the deeper, the Ground. The self-avatar person says, this is just-me. The person starting the spiritual journey says, I hope the F this is not me. Actual practice is about either attention or awareness, or both. Thoughts or feeling just circling themselves is not true practice. Eventually, trying to practice, ~you~ can eventually see, Oh, I'm not thoughts, feelings/emotions or actions, I am awareness itself. And you can see, Oh, my attention does not have to be continually captured by thoughts, feelings/emotions or actions, I can attend-to whatever arises. So awareness-attention arises from Ground, Source. Thoughts, feelings/emotions, actions still operate, like a rock rolling down a hill. One can say, Oh, I have seen through the illusion of self, nothing else matters. Or, one can be-a-witness-to events, thoughts, feelings/emotions and actions. I think it makes a difference, which. You can practice until you become the practice. Then you still practice, but it is no longer practice, it is just what-you-are. However...

self-avatar is like the smartest AI that will ever exist, crafty. This was explained very well in one of the early books I read (pre-Gurdjieff), Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism by Chogym Trungpa Rinpoche.

[tenka]

Apr 29, 2024 7:34:03 GMT -5 laughter said:

Apr 28, 2024 13:42:19 GMT -5 tenka said:

So why do you think that we are not remembering what we are that is forever present right here, right now?

In my opinion I don't think many have a Scooby-doo why they don't remember what they are.

You see in my eyes if a peep knows why they forget, then that will reflect what needs to be done in order to remember.

Peeps that say there is nothing to be done will have a different understanding to those that believe there is lots to do.

Short answer is mistaken identity. I agree with your last two sentences. For as long as someone hasn't realized the existential truth, there are plenty of suggestions available about what to do in the meantime. But, in the biggest picture, to paraphrase ZD, it's all just THIS. THISING.

That's a given at some point, that's why one begins to question the norm but I am more so referring to why there is a mistaken identity in the first place.

We can blame normality and all the conditioning that encompasses the mistaken identity, butt that is present for a reason I would say.

If it wasn't we would be popping out of our mother's womb fully realised from birth.

The way of the world is the way it is for a reason Ii would say, otherwise there would be no questions, no seekers. No need for non duality teachings.

[laughter]

May 4, 2024 14:30:03 GMT -5 tenka said:

Apr 29, 2024 7:34:03 GMT -5 laughter said:

Short answer is mistaken identity. I agree with your last two sentences. For as long as someone hasn't realized the existential truth, there are plenty of suggestions available about what to do in the meantime. But, in the biggest picture, to paraphrase ZD, it's all just THIS. THISING.

That's a given at some point, that's why one begins to question the norm but I am more so referring to why there is a mistaken identity in the first place.

We can blame normality and all the conditioning that encompasses the mistaken identity, butt that is present for a reason I would say.

If it wasn't we would be popping out of our mother's womb fully realised from birth.

The way of the world is the way it is for a reason Ii would say, otherwise there would be no questions, no seekers. No need for non duality teachings.

What would you say that reason is? The notion that comes to mind here is a conditioned response based on what I was taught about the world when I was still a teenager. Carl Sagan once said that the reason for our consciousness of the Universe - the reason humanity is here - is so that the Universe may know itself. Seemed like a good answer to me at the time. But turns out it was really just a placeholder.

[stardustpilgrim]

Apr 22, 2024 9:44:40 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Apr 21, 2024 23:48:39 GMT -5 Reefs said:

TBH, I’ve never heard of Shunyamurti before. Some of his videos just popped up one day in the suggestion column on youtube, so I watched a couple of those and found them to be exceptionally clear. And so I posted one video.

Then ZD mentioned those rumors. I looked it up and there seem to be some folks dedicated to badmouthing Shunyamurti, they set up a website especially for that purpose. And you know what that reminds me of? Gab!

Spiritual communities are tricky business. They attract of lot of needy, confused and also egomaniacal people, with lots of interpersonal dynamics.

Consider this: imagine a newbie coming to ST and reading a couple of posts by ZD (or yours truly) and finding them to be of exceptional clarity, and thinking “Wow, awesome. Such clarity! I like that guy.” And then that newbie goes to gab and starts reading what’s written there about ZD (or yours truly). And not knowing anything about ST’s history, he’s probably going to think “Woah, I had no idea that guy was such a fraud and bully! Apparently he randomly bans members as soon as they dare to disagree with him, threatening his oversized but fragile spiritual ego! He seems to be running his own personal cult on that forum, like a dictator, having all opposition silenced or banned, surrounded by yes-men, who don’t have the balls to point out this blatant abuse of power... very much like society these days!”

Now, what is fact and what is fiction here? How could the newbie ever tell without knowing the whole story, first hand?
I think we are in a very similar situation with Shunyamurti and many other gurus who have been accused of questionable behavior, like Osho, Sadhguru, Mooji etc. Those allegations could be all true, or not. It could all be true and then it would be a bad case of supersized spiritual ego gone wild. Or it could be someone envying their popularity and success, one of their direct competitors in the spiritual circus, just trying to get some of their market share. Or it could be a former disgruntled follower of them, who had been rejected for whatever reason and his/her ego bruised and is now trying to get even from afar.

The pointers are crystal clear though. And that’s why I posted the video and why we are still discussing these other gurus.

So, while on the one hand, if the walk doesn’t match the talk is an indicator that clarity isn’t really that crystal, we can’t verify the walk of these people first hand, only based on hearsay, and so have to stick to the talk for the time being and take what we hear about the walk with several grains of salt.

But as far as I can tell, having watched only a couple of videos, Shunyamurti’s talk is exceptionally clear and also very elegant, one of the best you can find these days.

I agree, and without knowing firsthand what went down, it's impossible to know what's going on and whether S walks the talk or not. Rick Archer has run into the same thing. He posted one video of a guy who had what appeared to be a genuinely huge realization. The guy attracted a lot of followers, but subsequently many followers fell away and began describing actions that made everything far more problematic. Apparently there was an addiction and the guy borrowed lots of money from his followers that he didn't pay back. Rick took down his interview, and the guy posted a rebuttal explaining his side of the story. I read the claims from both sides of the aisle and concluded that the guy had some serious problems. For that reason I quit recommending that people listen to the guy. Rick told me that this has happened about 25 times which is not bad considering he's done 800 interviews.

It does, however, bring up the issue of what it means to walk the talk. S is very clear concerning ND, but if the allegations are true, what does that imply? To me it implies that a human can discover the non-dual nature of reality but still have some deep--seated personality issues/flaws that would NOT make them good in-person teachers. It would be safer for a newbie to listen to the satsangs, but not get involved personally with the teacher. I suspect that this is more of a problem with independent teachers than ones who teach in traditional structures among people who have equal insight. Even then, there's no certainty because there are several well-known Tibetan figures of some renown whose high-ranking cohorts hid their bad behavior for years.

It appears that there can be enlightened insight by both mature psychologically well-adjusted people and enlightened insight by immature psychologically-screwed up people. Perhaps this is why some Zen Masters distinguish between enlightenment and "Holy Buddhahood." Thoughts?

Still haven't watched the video and don't know anything about S guy, but this is exactly my point on the Blind Spot thread, so I don't know why you (all-plural) are fighting me on this same issue there.

[tenka]

May 4, 2024 16:49:43 GMT -5 laughter said:

May 4, 2024 14:30:03 GMT -5 tenka said:

That's a given at some point, that's why one begins to question the norm but I am more so referring to why there is a mistaken identity in the first place.

We can blame normality and all the conditioning that encompasses the mistaken identity, butt that is present for a reason I would say.

If it wasn't we would be popping out of our mother's womb fully realised from birth.

The way of the world is the way it is for a reason Ii would say, otherwise there would be no questions, no seekers. No need for non duality teachings.

What would you say that reason is? The notion that comes to mind here is a conditioned response based on what I was taught about the world when I was still a teenager. Carl Sagan once said that the reason for our consciousness of the Universe - the reason humanity is here - is so that the Universe may know itself. Seemed like a good answer to me at the time. But turns out it was really just a placeholder.

The universe knowing itself through humanity is one way of putting it for sure. 

I don't know why individuality came about in the first place, I doubt God was bored stiff wanting some playmates butt what I find interesting is why the majority don't remember what we are.

What we were taught at school or by our parents that influence our conditional thoughts are present for a reason.

Most don't remember the spirit leaving the body each night, most don't remember their last incarnation and what that entailed.

So we have a common theme of not remembering time and time again.

It's all subconsciously there and yet it is most difficult for average Joe to attain the information, to attain the realisation.

I obviously know my journey and know in hindsight that what I did revealed what I now know.

This is why I am an advocate of processes. I suppose it's in the same bed as the The Eightfold Path to some degree, but the thing is some have so called spontaneous realisations without knowing their complete history.

If one had the knowing of what led one to the moment of realisation one could join the dots.

Most Kan't, so one only draws upon the present moment. That's unfortunate. 

[laughter]

May 5, 2024 13:13:54 GMT -5 tenka said:

May 4, 2024 16:49:43 GMT -5 laughter said:

What would you say that reason is? The notion that comes to mind here is a conditioned response based on what I was taught about the world when I was still a teenager. Carl Sagan once said that the reason for our consciousness of the Universe - the reason humanity is here - is so that the Universe may know itself. Seemed like a good answer to me at the time. But turns out it was really just a placeholder.

The universe knowing itself through humanity is one way of putting it for sure. 

I don't know why individuality came about in the first place, I doubt God was bored stiff wanting some playmates butt what I find interesting is why the majority don't remember what we are.

What we were taught at school or by our parents that influence our conditional thoughts are present for a reason.

Most don't remember the spirit leaving the body each night, most don't remember their last incarnation and what that entailed.

So we have a common theme of not remembering time and time again.

It's all subconsciously there and yet it is most difficult for average Joe to attain the information, to attain the realisation.

I obviously know my journey and know in hindsight that what I did revealed what I now know.

This is why I am an advocate of processes. I suppose it's in the same bed as the The Eightfold Path to some degree, but the thing is some have so called spontaneous realisations without knowing their complete history.

If one had the knowing of what led one to the moment of realisation one could join the dots.

Most Kan't, so one only draws upon the present moment. That's unfortunate. 

My memory of it is pretty common of what I've read of a few others. Tolle tricks his readers into a number of meditative practices. I say "tricks" because he never used the word "meditation". He offers his reader the suggestion that "You Are not Your Mind", so then, the natural question becomes (even if one isn't consciously aware that this is what they are asking, I wasn't), "well, then, what am I?". He then points to the subtle, silent awareness that is always here and now, and refers to the "felt oneness" .. with THAT. A glorious collapse and eventual period of nearly complete non-knowing and existential confusion and maximally intense questioning eventually ensued .. which was quite exhilarating while it lasted.

I've read and heard similar stories, but no one story is exactly like the next, and I think that actively attempting to follow in someone else's footsteps is just as likely to be unhelpful than helpful. Better to listen to the type of advice ZD wrote here, and then follow with what resonates. That list is essentially the tip of an iceberg, but all one needs to taste the lake of the truth, is one pure glass of the water of life and love. It's not necessary to go on a magical mystery tour. One will find him or herself, where ever they happen to be, whenever it happens to happen.

[tenka]

May 5, 2024 15:09:17 GMT -5 laughter said:

May 5, 2024 13:13:54 GMT -5 tenka said:

The universe knowing itself through humanity is one way of putting it for sure. 

I don't know why individuality came about in the first place, I doubt God was bored stiff wanting some playmates butt what I find interesting is why the majority don't remember what we are.

What we were taught at school or by our parents that influence our conditional thoughts are present for a reason.

Most don't remember the spirit leaving the body each night, most don't remember their last incarnation and what that entailed.

So we have a common theme of not remembering time and time again.

It's all subconsciously there and yet it is most difficult for average Joe to attain the information, to attain the realisation.

I obviously know my journey and know in hindsight that what I did revealed what I now know.

This is why I am an advocate of processes. I suppose it's in the same bed as the The Eightfold Path to some degree, but the thing is some have so called spontaneous realisations without knowing their complete history.

If one had the knowing of what led one to the moment of realisation one could join the dots.

Most Kan't, so one only draws upon the present moment. That's unfortunate. 

My memory of it is pretty common of what I've read of a few others. Tolle tricks his readers into a number of meditative practices. I say "tricks" because he never used the word "meditation". He offers his reader the suggestion that "You Are not Your Mind", so then, the natural question becomes (even if one isn't consciously aware that this is what they are asking, I wasn't), "well, then, what am I?". He then points to the subtle, silent awareness that is always here and now, and refers to the "felt oneness" .. with THAT. A glorious collapse and eventual period of nearly complete non-knowing and existential confusion and maximally intense questioning eventually ensued .. which was quite exhilarating while it lasted.

I've read and heard similar stories, but no one story is exactly like the next, and I think that actively attempting to follow in someone else's footsteps is just as likely to be unhelpful than helpful. Better to listen to the type of advice ZD wrote here, and then follow with what resonates. That list is essentially the tip of an iceberg, but all one needs to taste the lake of the truth, is one pure glass of the water of life and love. It's not necessary to go on a magical mystery tour. One will find him or herself, where ever they happen to be, whenever it happens to happen.

There are lots of good advice out there so to speak as ways and means to find oneself, butt for some as discussed to some degree over the years with other's is that there is no one present that meditates. There is no one to find, there is nothing to do etc.

Magic mystery tours to some are just reconnecting and remembering what needs to be remembered. You see some don't see any benefits in purifying or forgiving oneself or other's for many a reason but if one is ignorant to what happened 500 years ago one might not understand what possible effects it has on oneself in the present moment.

I don't follow Tolle at all but all this being aware of awareness or whatever he say's is good in some respects but it doesn't get to the nitty gritty of what needs to be done underneath the surface.

This is why my self enquiry brought the shite to the surface and wasn't like the self enquiry of repeating mantra all day long or focussing on I am.

Many know I am an advocate of transformational processes. It reflects my alchemic backgrounds, again from previous incarnations.

You see everything can at a point come together, but there is so much lacking and not understood if one want's to bypass all of this and try and get into a space which I would say bypasses what needs to be resolved in some shape or form.

Again, it about remembering and integrating. Understanding why certain things are not present within awareness, like the realisation of what you are.