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Post by zendancer on Jan 31, 2024 7:32:25 GMT -5
Irritation does not arise due to the blame upon others. But anger does. Irritation is just low volume blame. You are still irritated AT something. Yes, and this is only true if there is a "me" behind the blame. When the illusion of "me" collapses, all that remains is THIS. In Zen-speak, from the standpoint of THIS in the form of a human, irritation is not-irritation, anger is not-anger, sadness is not-sadness, happiness is not-happiness, etc. It's the way Zen people use language to point to what lies beyond language or conception. G got attached to an idea promoted by E, and he can't let go of that idea long enough to see the underlying truth. In Zen-speak that's called "wandering around outside the temple."  |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 31, 2024 10:16:08 GMT -5
When you focus touches thought/perception, you are in experience, as long as you are in experience, you can't avoid duality because that's the nature of experience. Duality only exists in imagination. Leave imagination behind and find out what remains in that absence. That's the only thing, which is experiencing, Am I wrong? You can correct me If I am wrong. |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 31, 2024 10:16:40 GMT -5
Irritation does not arise due to the blame upon others. But anger does. Don't laugh too heavily! that's the truth. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 31, 2024 10:17:34 GMT -5
Not the broader point here… but just curious… how often do you get angry at things? I’m guessing never to none. Almost never, but one should never say "never ever" because what may happen next is unknowable. I've gotten angry once or twice in the past at concrete truck drivers who nearly killed us in hot weather by pouring concrete too fast or too dry and didn't seem to appreciate how much they were making us workers struggle despite being told several times to "slow down" or "add some water." I understood that the drivers were either mentally detached from what they were doing, had no experience, or didn't care, but whether we want to call our attitude at that time "extreme irritation" or "anger" is anybody's call. Other than incidents with concrete truck drivers the only other thing that I can remember that generates extreme irritation is when someone pushes an idea or expectation that is clearly absurd or illogical. At a certain point one just doesn't want to listen to nonsense, and the usual response is to simply walk away. The main point is that when this happens without self-referential reflection, it isn't the same as when there is a sense of a "me" being offended by something. When there's no self-referential reflection, the response to any activity is empty. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 31, 2024 10:18:06 GMT -5
Don't laugh too heavily! that's the truth. TMT |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 31, 2024 10:18:57 GMT -5
Irritation is just low volume blame. You are still irritated AT something. Yes, and this is only true if there is a "me" behind the blame. When the illusion of "me" collapses, all that remains is THIS. In Zen-speak, from the standpoint of THIS in the form of a human, irritation is not-irritation, anger is not-anger, sadness is not-sadness, happiness is not-happiness, etc. It's the way Zen people use language to point to what lies beyond language or conception. G got attached to an idea promoted by E, and he can't let go of that idea long enough to see the underlying truth. In Zen-speak that's called "wandering around outside the temple." My life has been like a rollercoaster ride, with ups and downs. For many years, I didn’t realize this, but one day, I finally did. Since then, I’ve stopped chasing after a particular state and have learned to enjoy the ride. |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 31, 2024 10:20:15 GMT -5
Not the broader point here… but just curious… how often do you get angry at things? I’m guessing never to none. Forum appears totally different from the real life. And also from what I see mostly zendancer doesn't lie here. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 31, 2024 10:27:45 GMT -5
Yes, and this is only true if there is a "me" behind the blame. When the illusion of "me" collapses, all that remains is THIS. In Zen-speak, from the standpoint of THIS in the form of a human, irritation is not-irritation, anger is not-anger, sadness is not-sadness, happiness is not-happiness, etc. It's the way Zen people use language to point to what lies beyond language or conception. G got attached to an idea promoted by E, and he can't let go of that idea long enough to see the underlying truth. In Zen-speak that's called "wandering around outside the temple." My life has been like a rollercoaster ride, with ups and downs. For many years, I didn’t realize this, but one day, I finally did. Since then, I’ve stopped chasing after a particular state and have learned to enjoy the ride. That's a significant realization! Only one more realization is necessary--that there's no separate "me" realizing anything, having experiences, and/or chasing or not chasing a particular state.  |
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Post by DonHelado on Jan 31, 2024 11:08:00 GMT -5
Most of spirituality is an abstract mind-made virtual reality, overlaid on actual life. As such, spirituality is unnecessary. Many people are attached to this meta reality, because it gives them a sense of being special, something "beyond" an "ordinary" life. But that need to feel special comes from a compensation for underlying fear. Drop it all and be free.
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Post by DonHelado on Jan 31, 2024 11:29:43 GMT -5
LOA is typical lightweight spirituality. In one form, it says nothing of substance, so it can't be tested or contradicted. In another form, it uses circular logic, so it fails a priori. It's good for people who want to sell books of wishful thinking, and for people attached to the idea being a separate person and controlling the Universe.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 31, 2024 12:32:50 GMT -5
Almost never, but one should never say "never ever" because what may happen next is unknowable. I've gotten angry once or twice in the past at concrete truck drivers who nearly killed us in hot weather by pouring concrete too fast or too dry and didn't seem to appreciate how much they were making us workers struggle despite being told several times to "slow down" or "add some water." I understood that the drivers were either mentally detached from what they were doing, had no experience, or didn't care, but whether we want to call our attitude at that time "extreme irritation" or "anger" is anybody's call. Other than incidents with concrete truck drivers the only other thing that I can remember that generates extreme irritation is when someone pushes an idea or expectation that is clearly absurd or illogical. At a certain point one just doesn't want to listen to nonsense, and the usual response is to simply walk away. The main point is that when this happens without self-referential reflection, it isn't the same as when there is a sense of a "me" being offended by something. When there's no self-referential reflection, the response to any activity is empty. would have been a better word to say should never arise Yes, or "rage," which indicates that one is attached to the anger or that one cannot detach from ideas about whatever happened. If a young child of a sage expresses anger, it usually disappears within minutes rather than hanging around. Extreme irritation or anger is a spontaneous response, and virtually every well-known ND teacher occasionally expresses it. Disgust is another common response that falls into the same category as irritation or anger. Krishnamurti, Papaji, Niz, UG, Ramana, et al have all expressed disgust at the actions of various seekers. If G's logic about this issue was consistent, then disgust would be as impossible as anger, and there are countless videos that show that's not the case. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 31, 2024 12:43:39 GMT -5
Most of spirituality is an abstract mind-made virtual reality, overlaid on actual life. As such, spirituality is unnecessary. Many people are attached to this meta reality, because it gives them a sense of being special, something "beyond" an "ordinary" life. But that need to feel special comes from a compensation for underlying fear. Drop it all and be free. "Most" is correct, but not "all". For twenty years I thought I was on a scientific quest to understand the nature of reality, but a CC showed me that the quest had been spiritual in nature rather than scientific. Directly apprehending the Infinite changes one's outlook completely. This does raise an interesting issue that Grandma/Reefs has speculated about in the past. He and I have both noticed that people who have "attained" ONLY SR, do not express the same feeling of reverence, humility, gratitude, and awe that people express who have attained SR and ALSO had a deep kensho/CC. CC's are not necessary for SR, but they can change one's understanding and appreciation of the vastness and incomprehensibility of THIS. |
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Post by DonHelado on Jan 31, 2024 13:23:11 GMT -5
Most of spirituality is an abstract mind-made virtual reality, overlaid on actual life. As such, spirituality is unnecessary. Many people are attached to this meta reality, because it gives them a sense of being special, something "beyond" an "ordinary" life. But that need to feel special comes from a compensation for underlying fear. Drop it all and be free. "Most" is correct, but not "all". For twenty years I thought I was on a scientific quest to understand the nature of reality, but a CC showed me that the quest had been spiritual in nature rather than scientific. Directly apprehending the Infinite changes one's outlook completely. This does raise an interesting issue that Grandma/Reefs has speculated about in the past. He and I have both noticed that people who have "attained" ONLY SR, do not express the same feeling of reverence, humility, gratitude, and awe that people express who have attained SR and ALSO had a deep kensho/CC. CC's are not necessary for SR, but they can change one's understanding and appreciation of the vastness and incomprehensibility of THIS. Someone claims to have "attained SR" and yet lacks humility, gratitude, awe, reverence? The likely explanation is that they are a spiritual poser and a fraud. If you're unaware of human psychology, you might not be aware of all the spiritual posers in the world, and the motive they have to lie to themselves and others. The phenomenon ranges from mild and temporary (as when a student can mature past a partial realization), to extreme and permanent. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 31, 2024 14:03:29 GMT -5
"Most" is correct, but not "all". For twenty years I thought I was on a scientific quest to understand the nature of reality, but a CC showed me that the quest had been spiritual in nature rather than scientific. Directly apprehending the Infinite changes one's outlook completely. This does raise an interesting issue that Grandma/Reefs has speculated about in the past. He and I have both noticed that people who have "attained" ONLY SR, do not express the same feeling of reverence, humility, gratitude, and awe that people express who have attained SR and ALSO had a deep kensho/CC. CC's are not necessary for SR, but they can change one's understanding and appreciation of the vastness and incomprehensibility of THIS. Someone claims to have "attained SR" and yet lacks humility, gratitude, awe, reverence? The likely explanation is that they are a spiritual poser and a fraud. If you're unaware of human psychology, you might not be aware of all the spiritual posers in the world, and the motive they have to lie to themselves and others. The phenomenon ranges from mild and temporary (as when a student can mature past a partial realization), to extreme and permanent. Yes, I suspect many people interested in ND understand this issue and would agree with most of those points, but I have met people who have clearly discovered that THIS is all there is, and that the usual sense of selfhood is an illusion, but who have never felt the same sort of wonderment, awe, worshipfulness or devotion/reverence that a kensho fosters. SR is a subtle and profound shift in perspective, but a CC is often far more powerful in its effect, and a CC can result in numerous other realizations regarding the profundity of THIS. |
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Post by inavalan on Jan 31, 2024 14:52:19 GMT -5
Not the broader point here… but just curious… how often do you get angry at things? I’m guessing never to none. Almost never, but one should never say "never ever" because what may happen next is unknowable. I've gotten angry once or twice in the past at concrete truck drivers who nearly killed us in hot weather by pouring concrete too fast or too dry and didn't seem to appreciate how much they were making us workers struggle despite being told several times to "slow down" or "add some water." I understood that the drivers were either mentally detached from what they were doing, had no experience, or didn't care, but whether we want to call our attitude at that time "extreme irritation" or "anger" is anybody's call. Other than incidents with concrete truck drivers the only other thing that I can remember that generates extreme irritation is when someone pushes an idea or expectation that is clearly absurd or illogical. At a certain point one just doesn't want to listen to nonsense, and the usual response is to simply walk away. The main point is that when this happens without self-referential reflection, it isn't the same as when there is a sense of a "me" being offended by something. When there's no self-referential reflection, the response to any activity is empty. A small irritation caused by the hot weather and hard work, untended, selected from the endless possible situations the one that amplified into anger directed on external, apparently beyond your control, factors. That was a lesson to interpret, and draw guidance: pay attention to your emotions, tend to them timely. Surely, the deeper lesson is to identify the belief that caused the small irritation, then the anger. One such belief was that your experience was determined by uncontrollable factors, that may have even been guilty of negligence, careless and such. Identifying and removing / replacing such belief is the next step in your growth Same in the case of "clearly absurd or illogical", "nonsense" observed at others. That starts by generating irritation, adds to your past such experience, and when you don't address it timely, causes you extreme irritation. Again, that should be a lesson you interpret and draw guidance from, including identifying your limiting belief that caused the incident, and discarding it. |
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