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Post by laughter on Feb 24, 2024 23:13:04 GMT -5
 yeah, I'd get why you'd say that .. but, ever hear of "Lent"?  I'm talking about practitioners, people who pray, look inward and try their best to live up to the ideal. It's not a path of insight, no, but all roads lead to the same .. well, .. you know ... (also, note the presentation  .. yes, I had to "dig" it out) I was raised Christian, not so much at first, but it intensified as time went on, and after I was an adult, it went right off the rails. It almost stuck, but when I was a year out of home aged 19 the whole thing came tumbling down when I realised the whole belief I was brought up on was laughable. No gradual dissection or deconstruction, but a sudden and total collapse of all faith.
Wow, that's pretty intense. The belief system is designed for working folks to outsource curiosity about the world, and it was co-opted early on to facilitate self-replication of Christian institutions (the original meaning of "meme", btw: a self-replicating idea). I can understand how disillusionment can happen. This relates to your dialogs with satchi' about meditation with a focus. Tolle drew that distinction when he described what can happen if you "watch the thinker". He disclaimed he was advocating for a state of consciousness that was .. "absorbed", as in, with attention directed away from perception. But the trance-like states are opportunities as well. ZD writes about two extremes: ATA-T, and nirvakalpa samadhi. |
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Post by lolly on Feb 24, 2024 23:48:07 GMT -5
I was raised Christian, not so much at first, but it intensified as time went on, and after I was an adult, it went right off the rails. It almost stuck, but when I was a year out of home aged 19 the whole thing came tumbling down when I realised the whole belief I was brought up on was laughable. No gradual dissection or deconstruction, but a sudden and total collapse of all faith.
Wow, that's pretty intense. The belief system is designed for working folks to outsource curiosity about the world, and it was co-opted early on to facilitate self-replication of Christian institutions (the original meaning of "meme", btw: a self-replicating idea). I can understand how disillusionment can happen. This relates to your dialogs with satchi' about meditation with a focus. Tolle drew that distinction when he described what can happen if you "watch the thinker". He disclaimed he was advocating for a state of consciousness that was .. "absorbed", as in, with attention directed away from perception. But the trance-like states are opportunities as well. ZD writes about two extremes: ATA-T, and nirvakalpa samadhi. It was intense because rather than resting my laurals on Christ's forgiveness for a free ticket to heaven, that crutch was kicked out from under me, and realising you aren't judged at all is harrowing when you previously relied on it for salvation. The whole thing you lean on or turn to is just gone and there's no optional alternative, so you realise, it all you, you are on your own, and the comfort of a docile slavish mentality is no longer an option. You just become unhooked and float away. It takes a bit of time to develop your own values and convictions from there, but that process forsakes everything else as well. Eventually you get used to standing alone and are really glad they didn't rope you in to the fold.
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Post by laughter on Feb 25, 2024 10:05:22 GMT -5
Wow, that's pretty intense. The belief system is designed for working folks to outsource curiosity about the world, and it was co-opted early on to facilitate self-replication of Christian institutions (the original meaning of "meme", btw: a self-replicating idea). I can understand how disillusionment can happen. This relates to your dialogs with satchi' about meditation with a focus. Tolle drew that distinction when he described what can happen if you "watch the thinker". He disclaimed he was advocating for a state of consciousness that was .. "absorbed", as in, with attention directed away from perception. But the trance-like states are opportunities as well. ZD writes about two extremes: ATA-T, and nirvakalpa samadhi. It was intense because rather than resting my laurals on Christ's forgiveness for a free ticket to heaven, that crutch was kicked out from under me, and realising you aren't judged at all is harrowing when you previously relied on it for salvation. The whole thing you lean on or turn to is just gone and there's no optional alternative, so you realise, it all you, you are on your own, and the comfort of a docile slavish mentality is no longer an option. You just become unhooked and float away. It takes a bit of time to develop your own values and convictions from there, but that process forsakes everything else as well. Eventually you get used to standing alone and are really glad they didn't rope you in to the fold.
That same absence of meaning is what faces today's secular humanists. Difference being that they never had that feeling of communion to begin with. But they intuit it anyway. My first encounter with that was Sagan. A raw sense of hyper-expansive awe. But the thinking mind eventually dead-ends on nihilism. It's easy to fall into a hopeless, Cassandra-like black-pilled perspective on the Show, but, beyond the still point of deep non-reactivity, there is this bright, blinding, enveloping, immaculate .. light.  Jesus don't want no slaves. |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 25, 2024 11:23:27 GMT -5
I am more radical than him on the alternate realities concept. Definitely. |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 25, 2024 11:31:54 GMT -5
Irony all the way 'round. I skimmed the article. It might be an example of stats lying to themselves. My intuition is that the effect seems to make sense because many of us have experienced failing at something we thought we were good at, and it's easy to notice someone who's both inexperienced and overconfident. So the effect is likely a thing, but rather, particularized, rather than generally applicable to everyone involved in every learning curve. Yes, dunning kruger just refers to an unfortunate combination of ignorance and arrogance. Which you sometimes encounter, for sure. But to elevate that to a general rule, that's where it becomes questionable. The other irony here is that Lolly, a fierce promoter of the dunning kruger theory, has been on an unconscious dunning kruger rampage himself lately. Which is yet another irony because Lolly is all about becoming conscious. Can't make this stuff up! |
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Post by tenka on Feb 25, 2024 14:24:51 GMT -5
For sure, it really doesn't go far enough does it. There are trials that happen in a controlled way where the placebo works butt that's where things seem to come to a grinding halt. There isn't really much else that is put forward to put this placebo effect into mainstream practice when dealing with ailments.
Obviously one has to take into consideration there isn't any money to be gained by peeps using this technique. I mean my mum used to take yeast tabs daily that would cause a niacin flush. One day she thought about the niacin flush without taking the tablets and she had a hot flush nevertheless , there is. If you browse the links I've posted today, you'll see that they say that you can use the placebo effect to make medical assistance and treatments more effective. That is what Pavlov's experiments showed. Now, scientists' interpretations of the placebo and Pavlov's results seem to me to be largely wrong, because I disagree with their beliefs about the nature of reality. So, even if the implementations of their conclusions seem to work, even if only statistically, that is applied wishful thinking. It wasn't so much the actual placebo effect that I was talking about regarding being a mainstream practice butt rather more mind over matter practices. I mean you don't go to see your G.P. for swollen ankles to be met with a prescription of using your mind to reduce the swelling rather than popping a pill. Be it a real pill or not. The placebo is mind over matter and so is the latter. It doesn't seem that what the placebo refers too which is mind over matter stretches far enough to use as a remedy for most ailments / diseases. |
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Post by inavalan on Feb 25, 2024 14:24:59 GMT -5
Seems to me, from the outside looking in, that this is why Zen is so different from other Buddhist variants. "Beginner's mind", for example, turns Dunning Kruger inside out. Zen doesn't seem to me to negate or deny "Dunning Kruger", per se, but offers a radically shifted perspective on it. Same with what some might deride as "Neo-Advaita". I'd prefer, "direct path nonduality". It's not about gain or improvement. It's about subtraction. Traditional Advaita Vedanta has the same flavor: neti-neti. It's buried in Christianity as well. And this isn't a critique of scholarship, either. It's just that the existential truth is both sideways to all spiritual cultures and also buried within the "hidden center" of every specific genuine spiritual culture. The only thing I got from that article is: - A misunderstood effect
The most important mistake people make about the Dunning-Kruger effect, according to Dr. Dunning, has to do with who falls victim to it. “The effect is about us, not them,” he wrote to me. “The lesson of the effect was always about how we should be humble and cautious about ourselves.” The Dunning-Kruger effect is not about dumb people. It’s mostly about all of us when it comes to things we are not very competent at.
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Post by tenka on Feb 25, 2024 14:28:15 GMT -5
My mum used to say that a peep in a certain mind set could consume poison and it wouldn't effect them, same as the yogis that would lower their heart beat enough so to almost be in a hibernated state where one's body temperature could withstand being naked in a blizzard. These are all mind over matter related states and go against the grain of normality for use of a better word. Ordinarily I am just saying that everything has a signature that reflects their quality, whether it be an orange or a quartz crystal. Without any mindful intervention such qualities will hit the mark time and time again, just like certain processes will that revolve around diet and fitness will. I understand the doctrine of signature. And I also accept that each reality system comes with its own particular set of rules. However, those rules are not absolute rules, you can override them. It doesn't mean you should or have to, it just means that it is possible and sometimes maybe even advisable. Yep, toadally agree. I never insinuated that the natural properties of each signature was a super duper absolute trump card. It's just from a untainted perspective the sun will burn the skin of a new born if left out in it regardless of what beliefs or non beliefs one has. |
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Post by tenka on Feb 25, 2024 14:32:00 GMT -5
.. Well LOK can apply to the personal and the impersonal depending on what one refers too as being both. There is personal Karma and there is collective Karma and there is Global Karma. Collective Karma can relate to soul groups and it can refer to individual countries. Global reflecting the universe as a whole. That's why what happens on Earth has a knock on effect to everywhere else. At the end of the day like said a few times without reply, Karma has to stick to something like mud has to stick to something in order to stick. If the person is just an illusion then LOK is dead in the water with nowhere to go. No foundation that carries any weight. LOA works in the same vein. Something has to attract something otherwise the illusory peep is just wasting their breath trying to convince another illusory peep that LOA works for them. Personal context here means subject to time and space and cause and effect. And sure, both LOK and LOA are ideas about What-Is, and as such not the ultimate truth. But in the context of relative truths, LOA trumps LOK for the reasons mentioned. Butt for some non dualists the personal context refers to a person that isn't an actual person. How can there be a personal context relating to LOA & LOK when there is no bugger present that can be governed by either. LOA & LOK is only in effect if there is someone-thing to be effected by them. Peeps need to get the foundation sorted to begin with otherwise it's just hypothetical nonsense that is created in a dream world by dream characters that don't actually exist. |
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Post by inavalan on Feb 25, 2024 14:44:27 GMT -5
Actually, there is. If you browse the links I've posted today, you'll see that they say that you can use the placebo effect to make medical assistance and treatments more effective. That is what Pavlov's experiments showed. Now, scientists' interpretations of the placebo and Pavlov's results seem to me to be largely wrong, because I disagree with their beliefs about the nature of reality. So, even if the implementations of their conclusions seem to work, even if only statistically, that is applied wishful thinking. It wasn't so much the actual placebo effect that I was talking about regarding being a mainstream practice butt rather more mind over matter practices. I mean you don't go to see your G.P. for swollen ankles to be met with a prescription of using your mind to reduce the swelling rather than popping a pill. Be it a real pill or not. The placebo is mind over matter and so is the latter. It doesn't seem that what the placebo refers too which is mind over matter stretches far enough to use as a remedy for most ailments / diseases. , I don't think that placebo is only "mind over matter". That can't explain the placebo effect observed in animals, in intellectually impaired, in people who know they're taking inert pills, nor can explain the placebo reaction at cellular level being observed earlier than at central nervous system level, and such. Even the "mind over matter", I believe, isn't what people seem to understand by that. |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 25, 2024 20:48:58 GMT -5
I understand the doctrine of signature. And I also accept that each reality system comes with its own particular set of rules. However, those rules are not absolute rules, you can override them. It doesn't mean you should or have to, it just means that it is possible and sometimes maybe even advisable. Yep, toadally agree. I never insinuated that the natural properties of each signature was a super duper absolute trump card. It's just from a untainted perspective the sun will burn the skin of a new born if left out in it regardless of what beliefs or non beliefs one has. If you think in terms of game theory, each game comes with a certain set of rules that are accepted the moment you enter the game. And if those rules are cleverly designed, the game becomes fun or even addictive. Overriding the rules of the game or ignoring them altogether would essentially go against the purpose for playing the game in the first place. So while on the one hand, self-imposed limitation can take the fun out of life, on the other, if seen from the right perspective, they can actually put more fun into your life. Let's say you have some errands to run, the usually lap, e.g. stop at the bakery, the supermarket and then at the bank. Now you could approach it from a perspective of drudgery and drag yourself thru your day that way, or you could gamify your day by breaking new records in terms of lap times. What's interesting about the doctrine of signatures though is that it is not an "A causes B" thing, but more a "A goes with B" thing. For example, in astrology, pessimism does not cause sternness, a deadpan sense of humor or a strict work ethic, it's rather that pessimism, sternness, deadpan humor and a strict work ethic all go together because they all belong to the signature of Saturn. In deliberate creation terms it would be a certain level of vibration. This is why the same action does not always lead to the same result, but why the same level of vibration or state of being always leads to the same experience, regardless of circumstances or the action taken. |
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Post by lolly on Feb 25, 2024 21:05:17 GMT -5
It was intense because rather than resting my laurals on Christ's forgiveness for a free ticket to heaven, that crutch was kicked out from under me, and realising you aren't judged at all is harrowing when you previously relied on it for salvation. The whole thing you lean on or turn to is just gone and there's no optional alternative, so you realise, it all you, you are on your own, and the comfort of a docile slavish mentality is no longer an option. You just become unhooked and float away. It takes a bit of time to develop your own values and convictions from there, but that process forsakes everything else as well. Eventually you get used to standing alone and are really glad they didn't rope you in to the fold.
That same absence of meaning is what faces today's secular humanists. Difference being that they never had that feeling of communion to begin with. But they intuit it anyway. My first encounter with that was Sagan. A raw sense of hyper-expansive awe. But the thinking mind eventually dead-ends on nihilism. It's easy to fall into a hopeless, Cassandra-like black-pilled perspective on the Show, but, beyond the still point of deep non-reactivity, there is this bright, blinding, enveloping, immaculate .. light. Jesus don't want no slaves. There's always a spiritual bit, but instead of it being something you know about, like an image of Christ, 10 Commandments, virtue of humiliated guilt, a sinner mentality and so on, it's unknowable, and instead of faith being important, all important, it's a matter of truth. |
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Post by laughter on Feb 25, 2024 21:38:41 GMT -5
That same absence of meaning is what faces today's secular humanists. Difference being that they never had that feeling of communion to begin with. But they intuit it anyway. My first encounter with that was Sagan. A raw sense of hyper-expansive awe. But the thinking mind eventually dead-ends on nihilism. It's easy to fall into a hopeless, Cassandra-like black-pilled perspective on the Show, but, beyond the still point of deep non-reactivity, there is this bright, blinding, enveloping, immaculate .. light. Jesus don't want no slaves. There's always a spiritual bit, but instead of it being something you know about, like an image of Christ, 10 Commandments, virtue of humiliated guilt, a sinner mentality and so on, it's unknowable, and instead of faith being important, all important, it's a matter of truth. Fair enough, sure. Some people pointing to the existential truth want things from you. Others, not so much. Some people claiming to be writing or talking about spirituality are trying to convince you of something. Other's are suggesting that there's something you can find out for yourself. |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 25, 2024 21:47:04 GMT -5
Personal context here means subject to time and space and cause and effect. And sure, both LOK and LOA are ideas about What-Is, and as such not the ultimate truth. But in the context of relative truths, LOA trumps LOK for the reasons mentioned. Butt for some non dualists the personal context refers to a person that isn't an actual person. How can there be a personal context relating to LOA & LOK when there is no bugger present that can be governed by either.LOA & LOK is only in effect if there is someone-thing to be effected by them. Peeps need to get the foundation sorted to begin with otherwise it's just hypothetical nonsense that is created in a dream world by dream characters that don't actually exist. See my reply to Inavalan. The short version is this: There is an apparent bugger who makes apparent choices in a world that is governed by apparent laws or principles. The most basic of these apparent laws is LOA, a more special case of those apparent laws, a sublaw of LOA if you will, is LOK. So you could say that LOA is the primary apparent law of creation, LOK a secondary apparent law of creation. The long version is this: And here's yet another version: |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 25, 2024 21:48:26 GMT -5
@ Lolly:
If you want to understand Zen Buddhism and their take on karma, it's best illustrated by the wild fox koan.
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yeah, I'd get why you'd say that .. but, ever hear of "Lent"? 
.. yes, I had to "dig" it out)
