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Post by laughter on Jan 10, 2024 13:55:40 GMT -5
Self-honesty is as profound a question for the seeker of truth as it gets. People are honestly believing whatever they feel, like Winston. They really get self-suggested into feeling, and believing. For them, that is the reality. Their physical bodies (gestalts) react accordingly. That kind of delusion is like in a very realistic dream, when you have no clue that you are dreaming, when even if you test it, it seems "real". Surely, everything is real. Delusion is a real state. This is essentially the insight that serves as the basis for the dream metaphor that is part of Hindu culture. Billy Shakes expressed it in one of his more well-known monologues in the Tempest. Conversely, in Zen there is a story that goes "THIS! .. is IT!". You cannot deny breath, or that perception is happening. These two different statements can seem to the thinking mind to be at odds, contradictory. They are not. There is a resolution to this that can be pointed to, but not successfully approached by the thinking mind. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 10, 2024 16:02:48 GMT -5
People are honestly believing whatever they feel, like Winston. They really get self-suggested into feeling, and believing. For them, that is the reality. Their physical bodies (gestalts) react accordingly. That kind of delusion is like in a very realistic dream, when you have no clue that you are dreaming, when even if you test it, it seems "real". Surely, everything is real. Delusion is a real state. This is essentially the insight that serves as the basis for the dream metaphor that is part of Hindu culture. Billy Shakes expressed it in one of his more well-known monologues in the Tempest. Conversely, in Zen there is a story that goes "THIS! .. is IT!". You cannot deny breath, or that perception is happening. These two different statements can seem to the thinking mind to be at odds, contradictory. They are not. There is a resolution to this that can be pointed to, but not successfully approached by the thinking mind. What about the oasis-mirage and the canteen? |
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Post by laughter on Jan 10, 2024 16:13:51 GMT -5
This is essentially the insight that serves as the basis for the dream metaphor that is part of Hindu culture. Billy Shakes expressed it in one of his more well-known monologues in the Tempest. Conversely, in Zen there is a story that goes "THIS! .. is IT!". You cannot deny breath, or that perception is happening. These two different statements can seem to the thinking mind to be at odds, contradictory. They are not. There is a resolution to this that can be pointed to, but not successfully approached by the thinking mind. What about the oasis-mirage and the canteen? Yes. |
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Post by inavalan on Jan 10, 2024 17:10:39 GMT -5
Perception isn't reality. Perception is filtered / distorted by beliefs and by level of evolvement. Always.
Perception is always in the past: what your awareness reads from a memory. The present has no temporal size. It's already gone, it became past.
You are what you read from that memory, and you have no way to know who / what wrote that memory, why, with what. You exist, and make choices.
It doesn't matter whatever whoever wrote or said, because you perceive that by reading your memory. The information is symbolical, tailored for your benefit only. This is what I read about it, so this is what I am. This is what you read from your memory, and it is what you are.
We further operate under hypotheses read from the same memory, and tentatively define selves that expand beyond the primary choicer, but we don't know how much of this is rooted in some kind of truth or reality.
As the Delphic maxims advise: learn what you are; don't act as if you're something else; if you ignore the above there is misfortune, suffering.
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Post by inavalan on Jan 10, 2024 18:33:01 GMT -5
When you're a kid you're exposed to both truths and fairy tales; you tend to believe the former more, because you like them more. It's part of growing up. You like more those who tell you fairy tales than those who tell you truths, so there is suffering. But, that doesn't mean that suffering is good, nor that it is necessary. The idea is to learn your lessons early, including from watching others (as your subconscious offers you). When you believe that your "perceptions are undeniable", you'll definitely suffer, and not necessary learn from that suffering.
The "beauty" of this whole experience is that what I'm writing here is for my own evaluation, a test. What you read, if you read it, will likely mean something else to you, according to your needs, beliefs, evolvement, and you'll make a choice that will get evaluated by something you aren't aware of; then that will result in further experience for you.
There was a funny ad for the Mercedes C-series with the catchphrase: "perception isn't reality"; the voice explained that a Mercedes is perceived as an expensive car, but that wasn't the case (although when you saw a C-series, you knew that it was the poor man's Mercedes, and that the one driving it just wanted to fool others ...)
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Post by laughter on Jan 10, 2024 21:49:06 GMT -5
Perception isn't reality. Perception is filtered / distorted by beliefs and by level of evolvement. Always. Perception is always in the past: what your awareness reads from a memory. The present has no temporal size. It's already gone, it became past. You are what you read from that memory, and you have no way to know who / what wrote that memory, why, with what. You exist, and make choices. It doesn't matter whatever whoever wrote or said, because you perceive that by reading your memory. The information is symbolical, tailored for your benefit only. This is what I read about it, so this is what I am. This is what you read from your memory, and it is what you are. We further operate under hypotheses read from the same memory, and tentatively define selves that expand beyond the primary choicer, but we don't know how much of this is rooted in some kind of truth or reality. As the Delphic maxims advise: learn what you are; don't act as if you're something else; if you ignore the above there is misfortune, suffering. It's certainly "filtered", and distortion is a matter of degree. Notice how "distortion" suggests an optimum? But the way I mean "perception", it's "not always in the past". There is immediacy. There is this undeniable .. "process" .. but referring to "it" that way is just the mind making meaning after-the-fact. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 10, 2024 21:50:11 GMT -5
When you're a kid you're exposed to both truths and fairy tales; you tend to believe the former more, because you like them more. It's part of growing up. You like more those who tell you fairy tales than those who tell you truths, so there is suffering. But, that doesn't mean that suffering is good, nor that it is necessary. The idea is to learn your lessons early, including from watching others (as your subconscious offers you). When you believe that your "perceptions are undeniable", you'll definitely suffer, and not necessary learn from that suffering. The "beauty" of this whole experience is that what I'm writing here is for my own evaluation, a test. What you read, if you read it, will likely mean something else to you, according to your needs, beliefs, evolvement, and you'll make a choice that will get evaluated by something you aren't aware of; then that will result in further experience for you. There was a funny ad for the Mercedes C-series with the catchphrase: " perception isn't reality"; the voice explained that a Mercedes is perceived as an expensive car, but that wasn't the case (although when you saw a C-series, you knew that it was the poor man's Mercedes, and that the one driving it just wanted to fool others ...) Are you reading this sentence? Did it make you suffer? |
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Post by inavalan on Jan 10, 2024 22:10:10 GMT -5
Perception isn't reality. Perception is filtered / distorted by beliefs and by level of evolvement. Always. Perception is always in the past: what your awareness reads from a memory. The present has no temporal size. It's already gone, it became past. You are what you read from that memory, and you have no way to know who / what wrote that memory, why, with what. You exist, and make choices. It doesn't matter whatever whoever wrote or said, because you perceive that by reading your memory. The information is symbolical, tailored for your benefit only. This is what I read about it, so this is what I am. This is what you read from your memory, and it is what you are. We further operate under hypotheses read from the same memory, and tentatively define selves that expand beyond the primary choicer, but we don't know how much of this is rooted in some kind of truth or reality. As the Delphic maxims advise: learn what you are; don't act as if you're something else; if you ignore the above there is misfortune, suffering. It's certainly "filtered", and distortion is a matter of degree. Notice how "distortion" suggests an optimum? But the way I mean "perception", it's "not always in the past". There is immediacy. There is this undeniable .. "process" .. but referring to "it" that way is just the mind making meaning after-the-fact. I'll send you my reply in a private message, because it might offend you. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 11, 2024 1:50:18 GMT -5
It's certainly "filtered", and distortion is a matter of degree. Notice how "distortion" suggests an optimum? But the way I mean "perception", it's "not always in the past". There is immediacy. There is this undeniable .. "process" .. but referring to "it" that way is just the mind making meaning after-the-fact. I'll send you my reply in a private message, because it might offend you.  |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 11, 2024 2:20:52 GMT -5
I'll send you my reply in a private message, because it might offend you. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 11, 2024 7:31:19 GMT -5
It's certainly "filtered", and distortion is a matter of degree. Notice how "distortion" suggests an optimum? But the way I mean "perception", it's "not always in the past". There is immediacy. There is this undeniable .. "process" .. but referring to "it" that way is just the mind making meaning after-the-fact. I'll send you my reply in a private message, because it might offend you. I'm going to stick out my neck out here and say you think he would be offended because you would be offended. Is that how this works?  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you've seen through the illusory nature of self, you quite literally can't be offended. There isn't anything there to offend. You say instead: Father forgive them for they know not what they do. In fact, you turn the other cheek. And if someone compels you to go one mile, then say to them at the end of the mile, it's such a nice day out, let's go two miles. (A Roman soldier could compel any Jew to carry his "backpack" one mile). ...This is actually why after 3 years, Jesus only had 120 followers. He actually thinned out the crowd following him from time to time. Once he said, if you're going to follow me, you have "to eat my flesh and drink my blood". ...And it is said, after that, many departed from him...saying, wtf? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jesus understood that everything he said is a metaphor, that words veil the truth. That he spoke in parables doesn't mean only the parables were parables. That's why he peppered from time to time what he said with, he who has an ear to hear, let him hear. He tried to convey a meaning which cannot be put into words, so easily. He was very Chuang Tzu-Zen-like. When he said, a sower went out to sow, there was likely a sower, in sight, sowing, and he may have pointed to him sowing. And all the while Jesus was sowing. .....and after 3 years, he saw, at least 3 of you ~have it~ (Peter, James and John, and Judas, and Mary Magdalene, maybe mostly Mary), so now I can leave. ... |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jan 11, 2024 8:33:09 GMT -5
Great to see you back, Gopal. |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 11, 2024 8:55:40 GMT -5
Great to see you back, Gopal. Thank you. Arguments continue when you strongly believe something is right. If you don't believe anything, then there is no argument. I have seen this clearly, so the argument has stopped. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 11, 2024 9:11:07 GMT -5
Perception isn't reality. Perception is filtered / distorted by beliefs and by level of evolvement. Always. Perception is always in the past: what your awareness reads from a memory. The present has no temporal size. It's already gone, it became past. You are what you read from that memory, and you have no way to know who / what wrote that memory, why, with what. You exist, and make choices. It doesn't matter whatever whoever wrote or said, because you perceive that by reading your memory. The information is symbolical, tailored for your benefit only. This is what I read about it, so this is what I am. This is what you read from your memory, and it is what you are. We further operate under hypotheses read from the same memory, and tentatively define selves that expand beyond the primary choicer, but we don't know how much of this is rooted in some kind of truth or reality. As the Delphic maxims advise: learn what you are; don't act as if you're something else; if you ignore the above there is misfortune, suffering. It's certainly "filtered", and distortion is a matter of degree. Notice how "distortion" suggests an optimum? But the way I mean "perception", it's "not always in the past". There is immediacy. There is this undeniable .. "process" .. but referring to "it" that way is just the mind making meaning after-the-fact. Yes. The mind is always late to the party!  |
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Post by laughter on Jan 11, 2024 9:24:24 GMT -5
It's certainly "filtered", and distortion is a matter of degree. Notice how "distortion" suggests an optimum? But the way I mean "perception", it's "not always in the past". There is immediacy. There is this undeniable .. "process" .. but referring to "it" that way is just the mind making meaning after-the-fact. Yes. The mind is always late to the party!  |
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