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Post by inavalan on Dec 19, 2023 14:36:03 GMT -5
OK. I confess I am reading IRT a new book, at Wendy's. (Concerning one of my pet peeves with ZD). This was a response to a question. "Human beings have the ability to think, to reason. They can consider many problems and act upon their conclusions with relative freedom. Therefore, humans beings have the freedom to choose the wrong way; they have the power to act against the natural rule or standard state of the Universe, to willfully upset the natural balance. Since they have that freedom, I think they also have an obligation to get back on the right track, to regain the state of natural balance and follow the rule of the Universe. Stones, pebbles, and tiles do not have any intellectual ability. Therefore they are always in balance. This is the situation. Human beings are very great. They are superior to other animals and things in the Universe. But because of that greatness or superiority, they also have a great obligation; that us, to follow the right way -to be balanced. That's why we should practice zazen". Gudo Nishijima, A Talk on Pursuing the Truth, a commentary on Bendowa, the first chapter in Dogen's book Shobogenzo, 2023 I've been reading some Gudo for about ten years. I consider him in the top five of modern-day-Zen Buddhists, probably top 2 or 3. My response to this kind of advice is always the same: you can't practice your way to being what you already are--THIS--the undivided and infinite field of all being. How THIS becomes realized is a mystery, and everyone I've met who has discovered THIS has said that the discovery was an occurrence of grace. In fact, every realization that occurs is a mystery. Some people who practice zazen discover THIS, but the vast majority do not. By contrast, some rare people discover THIS who aren't even seeking anything. All we can say with any degree of certainty is that the discovery of THIS seems to be strongly correlated with a powerful need to understand "what's going on?" and a willingness to stay in a not-knowing state of mind until realizations occur that inform the intellect about whatever one wants to know. Prior to meeting Advaita sages I considered formal meditation and focused attention as the only logical path to awakening, but they challenged that idea, and as I reflected about the matter, I realized that something else was going on that practice, alone, could not explain. If it was as simple as focusing attention upon something, or upon nothing, then most Zen students would wake up, but it's clear that most of them do not. I suspect that the key factor is acting WITHOUT self-referential reflection, and this is why the clearest Zen Master I ever met used to tell his students, "Just do it!" What he was pointing to was acting without the idea of a "me" doing anything. Imagine someone who stays focused on whatever is happening without the idea of a "me" at the center of it. This is what Zen teachers are pointing to when they talk about "meditating with no gaining idea." If one is pursuing any kind of practice in hopes of getting something or reaching a higher state, it means that there is still the idea of a "me" at the center of the activity. This is also what is meant by "surrender." At some point one realizes that there is nothing "I" can do to make "me" wake up. The idea of "me" is the underlying fundamental problem. IOW, as long as there is a "me" doing something in order to get something, the game of imagining separation will continue, and it doesn't matter what form the doing takes. In the same way, your current 'considerations' (eventually) will be followed by other 'realizations' that there sill is something else that is going on. That will be a more dramatic shift than the one you described. One subjective obstacle is the lack of humility, the belief that you know The truth. The lack of doubt arrests progress. One objective obstacle is the current level of evolvement of the whole-self. |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 19, 2023 16:58:17 GMT -5
Level of evolvement case and point:
1.5 year old toddler; every time, when asked what he wants for Xmas, he said: abacus; the adults, surprised, made wild suppositions, assessments, predictions; shopping, decisions; an abacus arrived; anxious, the adults couldn't wait one more week to hand the gift, and they did it now; the toddler, excited, played with the abacus for all the 2 minutes, then moved on; apparently for good.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 19, 2023 17:00:53 GMT -5
OK. I confess I am reading IRT a new book, at Wendy's. (Concerning one of my pet peeves with ZD). This was a response to a question. "Human beings have the ability to think, to reason. They can consider many problems and act upon their conclusions with relative freedom. Therefore, humans beings have the freedom to choose the wrong way; they have the power to act against the natural rule or standard state of the Universe, to willfully upset the natural balance. Since they have that freedom, I think they also have an obligation to get back on the right track, to regain the state of natural balance and follow the rule of the Universe. Stones, pebbles, and tiles do not have any intellectual ability. Therefore they are always in balance. This is the situation. Human beings are very great. They are superior to other animals and things in the Universe. But because of that greatness or superiority, they also have a great obligation; that us, to follow the right way -to be balanced. That's why we should practice zazen". Gudo Nishijima, A Talk on Pursuing the Truth, a commentary on Bendowa, the first chapter in Dogen's book Shobogenzo, 2023 I've been reading some Gudo for about ten years. I consider him in the top five of modern-day-Zen Buddhists, probably top 2 or 3. My response to this kind of advice is always the same: you can't practice your way to being what you already are--THIS--the undivided and infinite field of all being. How THIS becomes realized is a mystery, and everyone I've met who has discovered THIS has said that the discovery was an occurrence of grace. In fact, every realization that occurs is a mystery. Some people who practice zazen discover THIS, but the vast majority do not. By contrast, some rare people discover THIS who aren't even seeking anything. All we can say with any degree of certainty is that the discovery of THIS seems to be strongly correlated with a powerful need to understand "what's going on?" and a willingness to stay in a not-knowing state of mind until realizations occur that inform the intellect about whatever one wants to know. Prior to meeting Advaita sages I considered formal meditation and focused attention as the only logical path to awakening, but they challenged that idea, and as I reflected about the matter, I realized that something else was going on that practice, alone, could not explain. If it was as simple as focusing attention upon something, or upon nothing, then most Zen students would wake up, but it's clear that most of them do not. I suspect that the key factor is acting WITHOUT self-referential reflection, and this is why the clearest Zen Master I ever met used to tell his students, "Just do it!" What he was pointing to was acting without the idea of a "me" doing anything. Imagine someone who stays focused on whatever is happening without the idea of a "me" at the center of it. This is what Zen teachers are pointing to when they talk about "meditating with no gaining idea." If one is pursuing any kind of practice in hopes of getting something or reaching a higher state, it means that there is still the idea of a "me" at the center of the activity. This is also what is meant by "surrender." At some point one realizes that there is nothing "I" can do to make "me" wake up. The idea of "me" is the underlying fundamental problem. IOW, as long as there is a "me" doing something in order to get something, the game of imagining separation will continue, and it doesn't matter what form the doing takes. No problem with that. There has to be a distinguishing between I-me, and awareness. It's virtually, if one is present, the other is not. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 19, 2023 17:02:22 GMT -5
My response to this kind of advice is always the same: you can't practice your way to being what you already are--THIS--the undivided and infinite field of all being. How THIS becomes realized is a mystery, and everyone I've met who has discovered THIS has said that the discovery was an occurrence of grace. In fact, every realization that occurs is a mystery. Some people who practice zazen discover THIS, but the vast majority do not. By contrast, some rare people discover THIS who aren't even seeking anything. All we can say with any degree of certainty is that the discovery of THIS seems to be strongly correlated with a powerful need to understand "what's going on?" and a willingness to stay in a not-knowing state of mind until realizations occur that inform the intellect about whatever one wants to know. Prior to meeting Advaita sages I considered formal meditation and focused attention as the only logical path to awakening, but they challenged that idea, and as I reflected about the matter, I realized that something else was going on that practice, alone, could not explain. If it was as simple as focusing attention upon something, or upon nothing, then most Zen students would wake up, but it's clear that most of them do not. I suspect that the key factor is acting WITHOUT self-referential reflection, and this is why the clearest Zen Master I ever met used to tell his students, "Just do it!" What he was pointing to was acting without the idea of a "me" doing anything. Imagine someone who stays focused on whatever is happening without the idea of a "me" at the center of it. This is what Zen teachers are pointing to when they talk about "meditating with no gaining idea." If one is pursuing any kind of practice in hopes of getting something or reaching a higher state, it means that there is still the idea of a "me" at the center of the activity. This is also what is meant by "surrender." At some point one realizes that there is nothing "I" can do to make "me" wake up. The idea of "me" is the underlying fundamental problem. IOW, as long as there is a "me" doing something in order to get something, the game of imagining separation will continue, and it doesn't matter what form the doing takes. In the same way, your current 'considerations' (eventually) will be followed by other 'realizations' that there sill is something else that is going on. That will be a more dramatic shift than the one you described. One subjective obstacle is the lack of humility, the belief that you know The truth. The lack of doubt arrests progress. One objective obstacle is the current level of evolvement of the whole-self. BINGO! x Infinity. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 19, 2023 17:12:04 GMT -5
Level of evolvement case and point: 1.5 year old toddler; every time, when asked what he wants for Xmas, he said: abacus; the adults, surprised, made wild suppositions, assessments, predictions; shopping, decisions; an abacus arrived; anxious, the adults couldn't wait one more week to hand the gift, and they did it now; the toddler, excited, played with the abacus for all the 2 minutes, then moved on; apparently for good. About 35 years ago my very young niece wanted a chocolate baby for Christmas. Well, I decided to get her a "Chocolate" baby. Everybody knew what I was getting her. Well...we were all excited to see her reaction, she had continued to say she wanted a chocolate baby. She was about 3-4. We watched as she opened it. When she had uncovered all the wrappings and the box, she immediately tried to bite right into the face. She immediately said, I-oun't y-it! (I don't like it!) Who knew? She actually wanted a chocolate baby. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 19, 2023 17:52:25 GMT -5
I was communicating with SDP in a way that tuned into his focus on practicality, as he seems to despise all concepts discussed working toward non-dual realization.  The king's conclusion is more about what he was searching for, and thus gathered from the Butcher's actions and words. Cultivating chi and working with kundalini typically seem to be focused on what the mind is trying to achieve, whatever that might be. The Chinese are all about practical everyday application, while the Hindu-oriented studies get a little more, shall we say, otherworldly or mystical. I'm not really going to go into all of that, other than it has a feel of being a more energetic aspect of awareness/consciousness, one might say. And that's fine. The Butcher is a "lover of the Tao", which seems a little more aligned with consciousness, so yes, I agree with your general idea of adjusting the focus of your awareness and allowing for the concepts you spoke of to take over. The butcher had been doing the job for 19+ years, so there is a bit of memory/learning involved in the substrate of his action, but he also had a ontological bent to him in how he expressed the actions, almost as if they mirrored an interior direction and sense of cutting through.... effortlessly, unimpeded... the Tao. I read into the language of the translations (not knowing the depth of what the originals actually said or the translators awareness of that), to look for nuances or clues that might give deeper insight. They're definitely there, and what the Butcher (an everyday Joe,,, not a king, philosopher, or priest) was alluding to through his talk is of a higher order than just being mindful or well-practiced at the art of butchery. Rather than get bogged down in sticky ontological points, I left it at that. is just not true. Despise is a very strong word. I disagree that it is acausal. (Michael Jordan will tell you he could never have achieved flow and never have his NBA Rings, without thousands of hours of practice. But thousands of hours of practice does not guarantee an NBA Ring. Just ask Karl Malone or Pistol Pete Maravich). I disagree that it's the be-all and end-all. If I'm crossing a 100 foot chasm, and am short 5 foot of having a 100 foot rope, why would I despise the 95 feet I have? SR is not in my vocabulary, why would I despise it? To you it might seem that awareness is "your" awareness, but "it" is as untouchable and indivisible in reality as it might seem to you to be subtle. What is pointed to takes no skill, and is not a reward for hard work. All of that is what appears to you, and is ultimately transient. There is no way for practice to make perfect what is already very simply, as it is. There is better and worse, noble and profane, the accomplished and the underachiever. Who is more contemptible, the beggar, or the lord? |
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Post by laughter on Dec 19, 2023 18:00:24 GMT -5
OK. I confess I am reading IRT a new book, at Wendy's. (Concerning one of my pet peeves with ZD). This was a response to a question. "Human beings have the ability to think, to reason. They can consider many problems and act upon their conclusions with relative freedom. Therefore, humans beings have the freedom to choose the wrong way; they have the power to act against the natural rule or standard state of the Universe, to willfully upset the natural balance. Since they have that freedom, I think they also have an obligation to get back on the right track, to regain the state of natural balance and follow the rule of the Universe. Stones, pebbles, and tiles do not have any intellectual ability. Therefore they are always in balance. This is the situation. Human beings are very great. They are superior to other animals and things in the Universe. But because of that greatness or superiority, they also have a great obligation; that us, to follow the right way -to be balanced. That's why we should practice zazen". Gudo Nishijima, A Talk on Pursuing the Truth, a commentary on Bendowa, the first chapter in Dogen's book Shobogenzo, 2023 I've been reading some Gudo for about ten years. I consider him in the top five of modern-day-Zen Buddhists, probably top 2 or 3. I'd say that's all quite insightful and accurate. You see a contradiction between that and ZD's pointing, and the dialog based on that perception has no end and is just a continuation of a very very long conversation that stretches back eons. You always insist that this fourth man has the free will, and you express quite clearly how the conditioned man who consist of the driver, passenger and rig are simply clockwork puppets. But notice how your appeals to free will are always described in terms of conditions and conditioning. You, are not a machine. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 19, 2023 18:10:51 GMT -5
My response to this kind of advice is always the same: you can't practice your way to being what you already are--THIS--the undivided and infinite field of all being. How THIS becomes realized is a mystery, and everyone I've met who has discovered THIS has said that the discovery was an occurrence of grace. In fact, every realization that occurs is a mystery. Some people who practice zazen discover THIS, but the vast majority do not. By contrast, some rare people discover THIS who aren't even seeking anything. All we can say with any degree of certainty is that the discovery of THIS seems to be strongly correlated with a powerful need to understand "what's going on?" and a willingness to stay in a not-knowing state of mind until realizations occur that inform the intellect about whatever one wants to know. Prior to meeting Advaita sages I considered formal meditation and focused attention as the only logical path to awakening, but they challenged that idea, and as I reflected about the matter, I realized that something else was going on that practice, alone, could not explain. If it was as simple as focusing attention upon something, or upon nothing, then most Zen students would wake up, but it's clear that most of them do not. I suspect that the key factor is acting WITHOUT self-referential reflection, and this is why the clearest Zen Master I ever met used to tell his students, "Just do it!" What he was pointing to was acting without the idea of a "me" doing anything. Imagine someone who stays focused on whatever is happening without the idea of a "me" at the center of it. This is what Zen teachers are pointing to when they talk about "meditating with no gaining idea." If one is pursuing any kind of practice in hopes of getting something or reaching a higher state, it means that there is still the idea of a "me" at the center of the activity. This is also what is meant by "surrender." At some point one realizes that there is nothing "I" can do to make "me" wake up. The idea of "me" is the underlying fundamental problem. IOW, as long as there is a "me" doing something in order to get something, the game of imagining separation will continue, and it doesn't matter what form the doing takes. In the same way, your current 'considerations' (eventually) will be followed by other 'realizations' that there sill is something else that is going on. That will be a more dramatic shift than the one you described. One subjective obstacle is the lack of humility, the belief that you know The truth. The lack of doubt arrests progress. One objective obstacle is the current level of evolvement of the whole-self. The Gateless Gate that Zen describes puts insight and realization into a completely different context. The countless possible shifts of perspective on the relative are not denied by this, but any notion of "progress" is seen quite clearly as just that: relative. Mathematics offers some interesting shadows of this. Ironically, in their attempts to put infinity into a box the mathematicians have done nothing less than unleash a torrent of absurdity.  |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 19, 2023 18:12:20 GMT -5
This is just not true. Despise is a very strong word. I disagree that it is acausal. (Michael Jordan will tell you he could never have achieved flow and never have his NBA Rings, without thousands of hours of practice. But thousands of hours of practice does not guarantee an NBA Ring. Just ask Karl Malone or Pistol Pete Maravich). I disagree that it's the be-all and end-all. If I'm crossing a 100 foot chasm, and am short 5 foot of having a 100 foot rope, why would I despise the 95 feet I have? SR is not in my vocabulary, why would I despise it? To you it might seem that awareness is "your" awareness, but "it" is as untouchable and indivisible in reality as it might seem to you to be subtle. What is pointed to takes no skill, and is not a reward for hard work. All of that is what appears to you, and is ultimately transient. There is no way for practice to make perfect what is already very simply, as it is. Nicely stated. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 19, 2023 18:13:33 GMT -5
Level of evolvement case and point: 1.5 year old toddler; every time, when asked what he wants for Xmas, he said: abacus; the adults, surprised, made wild suppositions, assessments, predictions; shopping, decisions; an abacus arrived; anxious, the adults couldn't wait one more week to hand the gift, and they did it now; the toddler, excited, played with the abacus for all the 2 minutes, then moved on; apparently for good. Do you think that ZD's pointing denies evolution and different states of consciousness? |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 19, 2023 18:20:30 GMT -5
In the same way, your current 'considerations' (eventually) will be followed by other 'realizations' that there sill is something else that is going on. That will be a more dramatic shift than the one you described. One subjective obstacle is the lack of humility, the belief that you know The truth. The lack of doubt arrests progress. One objective obstacle is the current level of evolvement of the whole-self. The Gateless Gate that Zen describes puts insight and realization into a completely different context. The countless possible shifts of perspective on the relative are not denied by this, but any notion of "progress" is seen quite clearly as just that: relative. Mathematics offers some interesting shadows of this. Ironically, in their attempts to put infinity into a box the mathematicians have done nothing less than unleash a torrent of absurdity. So true, and this can never be understood from within a relative context and a relative POV. The realizations that are pointed to in ND are never superseded because they don't involve a gain of relative knowledge. Science is different because old models or reality get replaced by newer and more useful models of reality. What we point to in ND cannot be modeled. It can be apprehended but not comprehended. Big difference! |
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Post by laughter on Dec 19, 2023 18:28:39 GMT -5
The Gateless Gate that Zen describes puts insight and realization into a completely different context. The countless possible shifts of perspective on the relative are not denied by this, but any notion of "progress" is seen quite clearly as just that: relative. Mathematics offers some interesting shadows of this. Ironically, in their attempts to put infinity into a box the mathematicians have done nothing less than unleash a torrent of absurdity. So true, and this can never be understood from within a relative context and a relative POV. The realizations that are pointed to in ND are never superseded because they don't involve a gain of relative knowledge. Science is different because old models or reality get replaced by newer and more useful models of reality What we point to in ND cannot be modeled. It can be apprehended but not comprehended. Big difference! As reefs sometimes points out about the acausal nature of the realization: "the good news is you can't do anything about it!". Some people delve into spirituality and gain all sorts of skills and knowledge and insight and subtle abilities of perception. That's all quite powerful. Seriously, some of what some folks express and write about here is quite inspiring. But to them, the news of the existential truth isn't all that good.  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 19, 2023 19:57:12 GMT -5
This is just not true. Despise is a very strong word. I disagree that it is acausal. (Michael Jordan will tell you he could never have achieved flow and never have his NBA Rings, without thousands of hours of practice. But thousands of hours of practice does not guarantee an NBA Ring. Just ask Karl Malone or Pistol Pete Maravich). I disagree that it's the be-all and end-all. If I'm crossing a 100 foot chasm, and am short 5 foot of having a 100 foot rope, why would I despise the 95 feet I have? SR is not in my vocabulary, why would I despise it? To you it might seem that awareness is "your" awareness, but "it" is as untouchable and indivisible in reality as it might seem to you to be subtle. What is pointed to takes no skill, and is not a reward for hard work. All of that is what appears to you, and is ultimately transient. There is no way for practice to make perfect what is already very simply, as it is. There is better and worse, noble and profane, the accomplished and the underachiever. Who is more contemptible, the beggar, or the lord? The context is Chuang Tzu. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The first time I read the Zen story (probably at least 40 years ago) of the *young dude student* meditating to become enlightened and the *old dude Master* rubbing two bricks together to make a mirror, I understood it perfectly. I agree. The alchemical principle: "To make gold you have to have some gold" applies here. I, me, self, can't practice. All I, me, self can do is get out of the way. I, me, self is always and only a self-perpetuating-feed-back-loop, a house of cards, a house of warped carnival mirrors, a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat (but not nothing). |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 19, 2023 20:00:56 GMT -5
Level of evolvement case and point: 1.5 year old toddler; every time, when asked what he wants for Xmas, he said: abacus; the adults, surprised, made wild suppositions, assessments, predictions; shopping, decisions; an abacus arrived; anxious, the adults couldn't wait one more week to hand the gift, and they did it now; the toddler, excited, played with the abacus for all the 2 minutes, then moved on; apparently for good. Do you think that ZD's pointing denies evolution and different states of consciousness? ZD has said explicitly dozen of times these are superfluous (my word) in relation to SR-TR (and you know that). According to ZD, there is nothing which can evolve. He has told me numerous times, explicitly, there are not different states of consciousness. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 19, 2023 20:06:14 GMT -5
OK. I confess I am reading IRT a new book, at Wendy's. (Concerning one of my pet peeves with ZD). This was a response to a question. "Human beings have the ability to think, to reason. They can consider many problems and act upon their conclusions with relative freedom. Therefore, humans beings have the freedom to choose the wrong way; they have the power to act against the natural rule or standard state of the Universe, to willfully upset the natural balance. Since they have that freedom, I think they also have an obligation to get back on the right track, to regain the state of natural balance and follow the rule of the Universe. Stones, pebbles, and tiles do not have any intellectual ability. Therefore they are always in balance. This is the situation. Human beings are very great. They are superior to other animals and things in the Universe. But because of that greatness or superiority, they also have a great obligation; that us, to follow the right way -to be balanced. That's why we should practice zazen". Gudo Nishijima, A Talk on Pursuing the Truth, a commentary on Bendowa, the first chapter in Dogen's book Shobogenzo, 2023 I've been reading some Gudo for about ten years. I consider him in the top five of modern-day-Zen Buddhists, probably top 2 or 3. I'd say that's all quite insightful and accurate. You see a contradiction between that and ZD's pointing, and the dialog based on that perception has no end and is just a continuation of a very very long conversation that stretches back eons. You always insist that this fourth man has the free will, and you express quite clearly how the conditioned man who consist of the driver, passenger and rig are simply clockwork puppets. But notice how your appeals to free will are always described in terms of conditions and conditioning. You, are not a machine. . I've never said anything about the 4th man, only that ~he~ (the owner of the carriage) is absent. Basically, "A man is unable to explain what he himself really is", so I would never try to put That into words. |
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